TRUMPTY'S SECRET WEAPON II

[MajGenl.Meade]

... and Germans. Humans too. White, don't forget white.

This is the same guy who was arguing that the Warsaw Jews should have gone quietly to the gas chambers and resistance was a bad idea...

[Lord Jim]

My my, what a slow study:

They were natural allies

The truth is the truth.

The Israeli diplomat and scholar Pinchas Lapide concluded his careful review of Pius XII's wartime activities with the following words: “The Catholic Church, under the pontificate of Pius XII, was instrumental in saving the lives of as many as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands.” He went on to add that this “figure far exceeds those saved by all other Churches and rescue organizations combined.” After recounting statements of appreciation from a variety of preeminent Jewish spokespersons, he noted. “No Pope in history has been thanked more heartily by Jews.”

At the Eichmann Nazi War Crimes Trial in 1961, Jewish scholar Jeno Levai testified that the Bishops of the Catholic Church “intervened again and again on the instructions of the Pope.” In 1968, he wrote that “the one person (Pius XII) who did more than anyone else to halt the dreadful crime and alleviate its consequences, is today made the scapegoat for the failures of others.” In “The Secret War Against the Jews” in 1994, Jewish writers John Loftus and Mark Aarons write that “Pope Pius XII probably rescued more Jews than all the Allies combined.”

The Pope's efforts did not go unrecognized by Jewish authorities, even during the War. The Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, Isaac Herzog, sent the Pope a personal message of thanks on February 28, 1944, in which he said: “The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion which form the very foundations of true civilization, are doing for us unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of Divine Providence in this world.”

In September 1945, Dr. Joseph Nathan —who represented the Hebrew Commission —stated: “Above all, we acknowledge the Supreme Pontiff and the religious men and women who, executing the directives of the Holy Father, recognized the persecuted as their brothers and, with great abnegation, hastened to help them, disregarding the terrible dangers to which they were exposed.”

Dr. A. Leo Kubowitzki, secretary general of the World Jewish Congress, came to present “to the Holy Father, in the name of the Union of Israelitic Communities, warmest thanks for the efforts of the Catholic Church on behalf of Jews throughout Europe during the war.”

In 1958, at the death of Pope Pius XII, Golda Meir, then Israel's Minister of Foreign Affairs, delivered a eulogy on behalf of the nation of Israel to the United Nations, stating: “We share the grief of the world over the death of His Holiness Pius XII. During a generation of wars and dissensions, he affirmed the high ideals of peace and compassion. During the 10 years of Nazi terror, when our people went through the horrors of martyrdom, the Pope raised his voice to condemn the persecutors and to commiserate with their victims. The life of our time has been enriched by a voice which expressed the great moral truths above the tumults of daily conflicts. We grieve over the loss of a great defender of peace.”

Never were the Jews and the Vatican so close as during World War II. The Vatican was the only place on the continent where they had any friends. The great Jewish physicist, Albert Einstein, who himself barely escaped annihilation at Nazi hands, stated in Time Magazine (December 23, 1940): “Being a lover of freedom, when the Nazi Revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, but the universities were immediately silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers, but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks. Then I looked to individual writers... they too were mute. Only the Church,” Einstein concluded, “stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing the truth... I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel great affection and admiration... and am forced thus to confess that what I once despised, I now praise unreservedly.”

http://www.michaeljournal.org/piusXII.htm

There were certainly some individuals within the large bureaucracy of the Vatican that provided aid to escaping Nazis, but to try to present that as somehow representative of the Catholic Church's role, let alone as evidence of some sort of "alliance" represents either a truly putrid level of dishonesty or a deep and profound ignorance of the truth.

I have to admit you've surprised me a little bit rube. I fully expected that having had your earlier bigoted accusations demolished, that rather than attempt to defend them (which of course you have not done) you would just come a long with some new slightly different version that also grossly misrepresents the facts. (I expected this because well, that's what you always do...)

But your usual MO is to do this after waiting a time, (I guess in the hopes that people will have forgotten about your earlier ass kicking) and then tossing out your vile, repugnant false charge in some new conversation....

I really didn't expect you to try to pull this in the very same thread where you already had your ass stomped, tenderized, ground into hamburger, and served up to you on a sesame seed bun....

I guess you're still hungry.....

I also have to confess to being somewhat puzzled as to why an anti-semite such as yourself would have any interest in this topic in the first place...

I guess your hateful desire to smear Christianity in general (and Catholicism in particular) outweighs your contempt for the Jewish religion. I suppose one of the challenges of being an ignorant bigot who hates as many groups you do is the need to prioritize your bigotry...

If taking a dishonest swipe at the Catholics means you have to pretend that you actually care about the Jews, you're prepared to do that....

[rubato]

... and Germans. Humans too. White, don't forget white.

This is the same guy who was arguing that the Warsaw Jews should have gone quietly to the gas chambers and resistance was a bad idea...

You are a liar.


What I actually said was that I applauded their resistance but it had no effect. All of which was proven, hence your lying now. Armed resistance while laudable was wholly ineffective. And if you were honest you would have admitted it before.



yrs,
rubato

[rubato]

The German population was overwhelmingly Christian before the Nazis came to power and millions of Christians either became active or passive Nazi supporters (until it abruptly went out of fashion in 1944). If they had not there would never have been a Nazi party at all. It could never have existed.


The Nazis would never have been successful except in a country saturated in the violent anti-semitism Christianity preached towards Jews.


The facts are obvious. So is the weasel-wording to conceal them.


yrs,
rubato

[wesw]

I think it had more to do with them being german than Christian.

the germans were pretty bad ass.

they have been humbled.

[Lord Jim]

Un-fuckin' believable...

I've found the "software" that rube uses to store any facts that contradict his ignorant simple-minded ideology and hard-wired bigotry:

[MajGenl.Meade]

The German population was overwhelmingly Christian before the Nazis came to power and millions of Christians either became active or passive Nazi supporters (until it abruptly went out of fashion in 1944). If they had not there would never have been a Nazi party at all. It could never have existed.

The Nazis would never have been successful except in a country saturated in the violent anti-semitism Christianity preached towards Jews.

The facts are obvious. So is the weasel-wording to conceal them.

yrs,
rubato

...and no Stalin without atheism. He also too didn't like Jews... Trotsky, Zonoviev and Kamenev come to mind. As usual, no one in the entire world has argued that Germany wasn't nominally Christian. I'd even agree that a virulently anti-Jewish movement probably wouldn't do too well in oh... say... Indonesia. But you responded not one bit to the cited arguments that Germany was not (in fact) "Christian" in post-WW1 social and political development and you ignore the opinions of Nazis, quoted at length.

As to your "resistance is futile" argument, you're continuing your post hoc argument. Because you claim that resistance did not slow down capture/shipment (a claim proven wrong), you implied it was a waste of effort. "Applauding" - I must have missed that - my apologies.

[rubato]

The German population was overwhelmingly Christian before the Nazis came to power and millions of Christians either became active or passive Nazi supporters (until it abruptly went out of fashion in 1944). If they had not there would never have been a Nazi party at all. It could never have existed.

The Nazis would never have been successful except in a country saturated in the violent anti-semitism Christianity preached towards Jews.

The facts are obvious. So is the weasel-wording to conceal them.

yrs,
rubato

...and no Stalin without atheism. He also too didn't like Jews... Trotsky, Zonoviev and Kamenev come to mind. As usual, no one in the entire world has argued that Germany wasn't nominally Christian. I'd even agree that a virulently anti-Jewish movement probably wouldn't do too well in oh... say... Indonesia. But you responded not one bit to the cited arguments that Germany was not (in fact) "Christian" in post-WW1 social and political development and you ignore the opinions of Nazis, quoted at length.

As to your "resistance is futile" argument, you're continuing your post hoc argument. Because you claim that resistance did not slow down capture/shipment (a claim proven wrong), you implied it was a waste of effort. "Applauding" - I must have missed that - my apologies.

The Russian people were not athiests to any significant extant but they were very anti-semitic (because they were christian).


And it was proven true that the resistance in the Warsaw ghetto had no effect on the course of events. I said that it was laudable morally but ineffective, the latter is obviously true. If you were honest you could admit it. If I am about to be murdered by someone, or a group, it is laudable to resist but stupidly dishonest to pretend it is effective when it is not.


yrs,
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[wesw]

don t resist, rube. resistance is futile. do not resist.

[MajGenl.Meade]

the resistance in the Warsaw ghetto had no effect on the course of events.

And that was proven false... so there we go.

[Guinevere]

All I know is there's going to be a great business opportunity in the pitchforks, torches and tumbrels concession at the Republican convention this summer.

[rubato]

the resistance in the Warsaw ghetto had no effect on the course of events.

And that was proven false... so there we go.

No it was not. They were all dead in a month. If someone offered you a chemotherapy regimen and said "you'll still die in a month" you would say it was useless and the FDA would not approve it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising

You have a perfect inability to change your beliefs when the facts have shown them to be false.


And you try to cover for it by lying about what others have said. Stupid.


yrs,
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[Lord Jim]

You have a perfect inability to change your beliefs when the facts have shown them to be false.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Once again you dwell on simplistic outcomes, as if that were all that matters. The fact remains that the rate at which those particular Jews were rounded up and gassed was lower than if they had not resisted. It had an effect on the course of events all right.

The fact remains that brave resistance brings to others a new determination. The fact is that "never again" and the State of Israel itself have strong roots in the pride of resistance as well as the horror of acquiescence.

The resisters of the Warsaw ghetto as well as the sonderkommando in Auschwitz had no illusion that their uprising would result in anything but their own deaths - which were going to occur anyway. They took a few Nazis with them though, didn't they?

To trivialize the resistance as the equivalent of an ineffective medical treatment reveals more about you than it does about the value of not surrendering tamely to thugs.

[Gob]

To trivialize the resistance as the equivalent of an ineffective medical treatment reveals more about you than it does about the value of not surrendering tamely to thugs.

Not that we needed more evidence.

[rubato]

Once again you dwell on simplistic outcomes, as if that were all that matters. The fact remains that the rate at which those particular Jews were rounded up and gassed was lower than if they had not resisted. It had an effect on the course of events all right.

The fact remains that brave resistance brings to others a new determination. The fact is that "never again" and the State of Israel itself have strong roots in the pride of resistance as well as the horror of acquiescence.

The resisters of the Warsaw ghetto as well as the sonderkommando in Auschwitz had no illusion that their uprising would result in anything but their own deaths - which were going to occur anyway. They took a few Nazis with them though, didn't they?

To trivialize the resistance as the equivalent of an ineffective medical treatment reveals more about you than it does about the value of not surrendering tamely to thugs.

I have said (often, now) that I approve of their actions but only a liar like you would continue to claim it made a practical difference. I have never 'trivialized' them but I have honestly appraised their effectiveness. Which was zero.

You were, in that earlier argument, trying to claim that if the German Jews had armed themselves that the outcome would have been different. That is just stupid. 80% of the Jews in Germany made the right choice and left, and lived. The tiny fraction who remained, 1/5th of 1%, would only have accelerated and justified their own extermination if they had a gun or two and tried to use them.

You are a fabulist, a liar. You are trying to sustain the idea that if you are morally obliged to do something that it has to be practically successful. It does not. The Warsaw uprising was morally the right thing to do but it had no effect. It is stupid to argue otherwise.

You have never read "Lord Jim" by Joseph Conrad, have you? I would recommend it.


yrs,
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[MajGenl.Meade]

You were, in that earlier argument, trying to claim that if the German Jews had armed themselves that the outcome would have been different

I believe I acknowledged an error on that particular gem - but by all means show me if I did not

You are trying to sustain the idea that if you are morally obliged to do something that it has to be practically successful

To the contrary. You are the one sustaining the idea that because all died, therefore their prior actions were ineffective. It is you demanding the practical success of resistance and judging it solely by the undeniable fact that they died anyway. 'Resistance is futile' is the argument of communist and fascist dictators alike and you are making that argument.

The Warsaw uprising was morally the right thing to do but it had no effect

Once again, you claim it had "no effect" - when what you mean is that it was not practically successful. You - not me. It had an effect all right. Perhaps this is what you don't understand:

Most of the Jewish fighters did not view their actions as an effective measure by which to save themselves, but rather as a battle for the honor of the Jewish people, and a protest against the world's silence

and this:

"The matter of the flags was of great political and moral importance. It reminded hundreds of thousands of the Polish cause, it excited them and unified the population of the General Government, but especially Jews and Poles. Flags and national colours are a means of combat exactly like a rapid-fire weapon, like thousands of such weapons. We all knew that – Heinrich Himmler, Krüger, and Hahn. The Reichsfuehrer [Himmler] bellowed into the phone: 'Stroop, you must at all costs bring down those two flags!'"
— Jürgen Stroop, 1949

and this:

Two resistance organizations, the ŻZW and ŻOB, took control of the Ghetto. They built dozens of fighting posts and executed a number of Nazi collaborators, including Jewish Police officers, members of the fake (German-sponsored and controlled) resistance organization Żagiew, as well as Gestapo and Abwehr agents (such as Judenrat member Dr Alfred Nossig, executed on 22 February 1943)

and this

German casualties are not known, but were not more than 300

Resistance made a difference all right - especially to 16 or more dead Germans and the hundreds wounded.