Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
Something written by someone afraid of verbs and incapable of agreeing a subject with its predicate?
"Hang on while I log in to the James Webb telescope to search the known universe for who the fuck asked you." -- James Fell
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
Back to the OP..
Live updates from the BBC...Fierce fighting has rocked Libya's Zawiya, 50km (30 miles) west of Tripoli, as rebels repelled government efforts to retake the key city.
Pro-government forces were pushed out of the city centre in heavy fighting on Saturday morning, but regrouped for a fresh assault later in the day.
Casualty figures were unclear, but heavy gunfire could be heard.
Meanwhile, rebels fighting Col Muammar Gaddafi have taken control of the port of Ras Lanuf to the east of Tripoli.
Observers say the overall balance of power is difficult to assess as the struggle for control over Libya continues.
In Tripoli, there is an air of growing confidence among regime loyalists as their control appears to be consolidated in Tripoli and other central areas.
But elsewhere, correspondents say rebel forces have an enormous determination to overthrow his regime.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12654670
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
Thanks for the link Strop...
I've also been following this whenever I get the chance on the Al Jazeera English web site....
(If anyone had told me two months ago that I'd be watching Al Jazeera for "news", I'd have told them to load up another bowl of what they're smoking and pass me the pipe....
)
Among US news outlets, CNN has the most comprehensive and in depth coverage....They've got a lot of international resources to draw on.
I've also been following this whenever I get the chance on the Al Jazeera English web site....
(If anyone had told me two months ago that I'd be watching Al Jazeera for "news", I'd have told them to load up another bowl of what they're smoking and pass me the pipe....
)Among US news outlets, CNN has the most comprehensive and in depth coverage....They've got a lot of international resources to draw on.
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
linky Jim? I'm trying to keep abreast of things there as best I can too.
This could be the start of a wholle new middle eastern ball game, one which could be for the good, but knowing the way they organise themselves there...
This could be the start of a wholle new middle eastern ball game, one which could be for the good, but knowing the way they organise themselves there...
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
Here's the link to their live streaming video:
http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/
(A word of warning; if you're interested in this kind of stuff, it can get addicting....
)
I don't believe it over states the case one bit to say that the events currently unfolding in the Mid East are the most significant international developments since the collapse of the Soviet Union and the fall of the Iron Curtain....
http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/
(A word of warning; if you're interested in this kind of stuff, it can get addicting....
)For good or ill, (and as I've said in the analysis I've presented I think there's a lot of good reason to be hopeful; though I admit the track record leaves a lot to be desired) the effect on us in the West is going to be profound....This could be the start of a wholle new middle eastern ball game, one which could be for the good, but knowing the way they organise themselves there...
I don't believe it over states the case one bit to say that the events currently unfolding in the Mid East are the most significant international developments since the collapse of the Soviet Union and the fall of the Iron Curtain....
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
I don't disagree with you Jim, if this spreads democracy (real democracy) to the midle east, espcially Saudi and other friendly states, (Bahrain, Dubai etc) then there could be a knock on in the unfriendly states.
But we're looking at very expensive gas here if the Libya situation continues.
But we're looking at very expensive gas here if the Libya situation continues.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
It seems like the better armed and equipped pro-Gadaffi troops are winning now. God help the Libyan people if Gadaffi takes control of the country again.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
Not gonna happen; if NATO can help it;
...but with Gadhafi bombing his own people, it does seem inevitable.
[/quote]
CNN"The violence that's been taking place and perpetrated by the government in Libya is unacceptable," U.S. President Barack Obama said at the White House. Moammar Gadhafi's government "will be held accountable for whatever violence continues to take place there."
Obama stressed that NATO is considering a wide range of responses -- including military options -- for dealing with the crisis.
...but with Gadhafi bombing his own people, it does seem inevitable.
[/quote]
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
It would appear that Gaddafi is prepared to massacre any number of his people to retain power. I think this constitutes a war crime and the UN should send in troops.
Welcome velentfy.
Welcome velentfy.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
Of course, that hasn't worked all that well in protecting anyone in many past operations.
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
A UN military mission isn't really an option because the Chinese would never go along....
As a matter of fact, for that reason, the UN has pretty much exhausted it's usefulness in dealing with this...
I haven't criticized the slow pace of the US response before, because I understood the need to evacuate US personnel and avoid a hostage situation, but in the past few days, I have seen a series of extremely unhelpful statements coming from the Secretaries of State and Defense....
Hillary has been dismissive towards the rebels, and her latest statement was to say that a No Fly Zone should not be a US or European operation.
Yeah, well it seems to me we ought to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time....
We need to stop dithering while Qaddafi slaughters his people by the thousands. All this navel gazing is doing is providing him with the impression that he's got a green light to do whatever he wants. It gives the folks laying their lives on the line the same impression. We need to impose a No Fly Zone IMMEDIATELY with whatever other countries have the capability and willingness to participate, and work on expanding participation as we go along. (It would be particularly helpful if we could get some Arab countries to participate...Egypt Saudi Arabia and Jordan all com to mind...they have the advanced aircraft and trained pilots necessary to make a contribution) Further delay on this is unconscionable.
We also need to start providing heavy arms to the rebels which will give them the upper hand they need to prevail. They've proven quite well that they already have a huge advantage in terms of morale and fighting spirit and motivation. We need to give them the tools to get the job done.
As a matter of fact, for that reason, the UN has pretty much exhausted it's usefulness in dealing with this...
I haven't criticized the slow pace of the US response before, because I understood the need to evacuate US personnel and avoid a hostage situation, but in the past few days, I have seen a series of extremely unhelpful statements coming from the Secretaries of State and Defense....
Hillary has been dismissive towards the rebels, and her latest statement was to say that a No Fly Zone should not be a US or European operation.
Yeah, well it seems to me we ought to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time....
We need to stop dithering while Qaddafi slaughters his people by the thousands. All this navel gazing is doing is providing him with the impression that he's got a green light to do whatever he wants. It gives the folks laying their lives on the line the same impression. We need to impose a No Fly Zone IMMEDIATELY with whatever other countries have the capability and willingness to participate, and work on expanding participation as we go along. (It would be particularly helpful if we could get some Arab countries to participate...Egypt Saudi Arabia and Jordan all com to mind...they have the advanced aircraft and trained pilots necessary to make a contribution) Further delay on this is unconscionable.
We also need to start providing heavy arms to the rebels which will give them the upper hand they need to prevail. They've proven quite well that they already have a huge advantage in terms of morale and fighting spirit and motivation. We need to give them the tools to get the job done.
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
I don't really see a need for that....Take him forcefully out of libya and try in the international court of justice?
It's the Libyan people themselves who have the greatest claim against Qaddafi for his crimes. Give them the help they need to prevail, and they'll take care of him just fine....
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
But Jim,perhpas we still support him behind the scenes? It wouldn't surprise me.
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
I don't think there's any chance of that; if that were the case I don't believe Obama would have gone so far as to publicly call for Obama to "leave and leave now"....if we intended to want to keep him there, that statement makes no sense politically. It makes Obama look like he can't influence events.
I think there are two things going on. I think initially that the hope was that the rebels would prevail swiftly without any help, so we wouldn't have to get involved. But since Qaddafi will stop at nothing to hang on to power that didn't happen.
Secondly, based on the statements I've seen from Gates and Clinton, I think there are some divisions within the Administration about how to proceed, and this has been holding up a policy. But it's past time for Obama to step up, make some decisions and put an effective policy in place. That's what we elect President's to do.
ETA:
All this dicking around is also sending a very bad message to countries like Syria, where one could expect the regime to be just as willing to use maximum deadly force to stay in power as Libya...
I think there are some folks in the Administration, (and definitely at the State Department) who think that a negotiated settlement that would leave Qaddafi in power but with a time table to free elections and a transition of power would be a perfectly acceptable outcome; maybe even preferable to an out right rebel victory.
But that boat sailed along time ago; Qaddafi has now spilled too much blood for the opposition to accept something like this, plus there's the fact that no one can trust a thing this fruit cake says. There's nothing that I've seen about the make up of the leadership council that drives the rebellion that indicates there's any desire for establishing some sort of Islamacist dictatorship, or anything other than pluralistic democracy. It's a very broad group of folks that encompasses both tribal leaders and highly educated professional types; doctors, lawyers, etc.
We ought to be giving them our full support.
I think there are two things going on. I think initially that the hope was that the rebels would prevail swiftly without any help, so we wouldn't have to get involved. But since Qaddafi will stop at nothing to hang on to power that didn't happen.
Secondly, based on the statements I've seen from Gates and Clinton, I think there are some divisions within the Administration about how to proceed, and this has been holding up a policy. But it's past time for Obama to step up, make some decisions and put an effective policy in place. That's what we elect President's to do.
ETA:
All this dicking around is also sending a very bad message to countries like Syria, where one could expect the regime to be just as willing to use maximum deadly force to stay in power as Libya...
I think there are some folks in the Administration, (and definitely at the State Department) who think that a negotiated settlement that would leave Qaddafi in power but with a time table to free elections and a transition of power would be a perfectly acceptable outcome; maybe even preferable to an out right rebel victory.
But that boat sailed along time ago; Qaddafi has now spilled too much blood for the opposition to accept something like this, plus there's the fact that no one can trust a thing this fruit cake says. There's nothing that I've seen about the make up of the leadership council that drives the rebellion that indicates there's any desire for establishing some sort of Islamacist dictatorship, or anything other than pluralistic democracy. It's a very broad group of folks that encompasses both tribal leaders and highly educated professional types; doctors, lawyers, etc.
We ought to be giving them our full support.
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
I see the major problem with the no-fly zone being the high liklyhood of collateral damage and/or mis-identified targets. in short our help may do more to hurt the perception of us than help. this requires a delicate touch. However I think we can do more politically (officially recognising the opposition) than we have been. Waiting for things to settle out will not only be disaterous in the long run but a major missed opportunity to rebuild our brand in the ME.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
Nothing will be done because the west lacks courage, imagination and discipline. Years from now, Obama will be an honored guest at the ninety birthday celebration of the great Libyan leader and liberator of the Libyan people The Great Colonel Kaddafi.
I once believed in the UN but now I know better.
I once believed in the UN but now I know better.
Soon, I’ll post my farewell message. The end is starting to get close. There are many misconceptions about me, and before I go, to live with my ancestors on the steppes, I want to set the record straight.
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
Sure lib, too bad we don't just have and shah to put in power like we did in Iran; they've been our great friends ever since and the people love us for our interference in their country.
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
Things that the west can do. We stop referring to the anti Kaddafi forces as rebels; in the liberal mind rebels are traitors that deserve to be hung. It has been in the past said by some people on this site. The opposition in Libya could establish a provisional capital at another city in Libya. We would recognize theCrackpot wrote:I see the major problem with the no-fly zone being the high liklyhood of collateral damage and/or mis-identified targets. in short our help may do more to hurt the perception of us than help. this requires a delicate touch. However I think we can do more politically (officially recognising the opposition) than we have been. Waiting for things to settle out will not only be disaterous in the long run but a major missed opportunity to rebuild our brand in the ME.
new government that would make Kaddafi’s people the rebels and traitors.
To aid our on economy we could sign an lease agreement where the Libyans would have the use of US military assets such as aircraft, flight deck privileges and the service of US contracted volunteers. Of course when ever possible there would be a Libyan in the cockpit, whether they could fly or not, and they would make all military decisions with our advise.
Soon, I’ll post my farewell message. The end is starting to get close. There are many misconceptions about me, and before I go, to live with my ancestors on the steppes, I want to set the record straight.
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
Since you so often (well, always, actually) get things completely backwards, what you meant to say was that in the conservative mind ...liberty wrote: in the liberal mind rebels are traitors that deserve to be hung.
Must be in the same place with all the noose pictures that someone was always ranting about.It has been in the past said by some people on this site.
"Hang on while I log in to the James Webb telescope to search the known universe for who the fuck asked you." -- James Fell
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
It's not been my experience that the views about what we should do re Libya is falling along predictable ideological fault lines....
I know Liberals who think we should be doing more, and Liberals who think we should stay completely out; ditto Conservatives and moderates....
Also it has not been my experience, (and I certainly haven't seen any evidence on this bbs) that either Liberals or Conservatives have an automatic dislike for "rebels"
It usually depends on the ideological orientation of the regime versus the ideological orientation of the rebels........
In this particular case, you have a regime with an ideological orientation that could probably best be described as incoherent, (when Qaddafi started out he had a leftist pseudo-populist anti-western orientation, but he's moved a long way from that) so there aren't many folks on any side of the political divide vested in supporting him.
I know Liberals who think we should be doing more, and Liberals who think we should stay completely out; ditto Conservatives and moderates....
Also it has not been my experience, (and I certainly haven't seen any evidence on this bbs) that either Liberals or Conservatives have an automatic dislike for "rebels"
It usually depends on the ideological orientation of the regime versus the ideological orientation of the rebels........
In this particular case, you have a regime with an ideological orientation that could probably best be described as incoherent, (when Qaddafi started out he had a leftist pseudo-populist anti-western orientation, but he's moved a long way from that) so there aren't many folks on any side of the political divide vested in supporting him.