Whatever will he do to occupy his time now?

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Whatever will he do to occupy his time now?

Post by BoSoxGal »

Gob wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:29 pm
Yep, but it's about censorship, not his ability to get his word out. A new moral philosophy, does social media have the right to ban people, or has its importance become bigger than the rights of its ownership?

I'm on a three day ban from Facebook, as I wished covid-19 on a group of fox hunters who were breaking UK covid guidelines.
THAT IS BEYOND THE PALE, I DON’T CARE HOW MUCH YOU LOVE FOXES!!

:roll:

(Being facetious; just the FYI in case that’s hard to grasp.)
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Re: Whatever will he do to occupy his time now?

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Scooter
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Re: Whatever will he do to occupy his time now?

Post by Scooter »

Gob wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:03 pm
In the days when book burning was all the rage, they didn't have the internet, nor TV even, book burning was a major way of censoring, and preventing access to information and thought. Banning communication by electronic/digital/social media, is the modern equivalent.
You're just saying they are equivalent without any reasoning to explain how. If you want to compare a social media platform refusing to host certain content to an analogy about books, it is much closer to a book publisher refusing to publish a manuscript, which I think you would agree is 100% within their rights.

Now, if a social media platform were to hack its way into some other platform and delete the content of one or more of its users, that would be the equivalent of book burning.
Digital segregation? Isn't that more dangerous than allowing the free flow of thought and information on the major platforms?
I think it is far more dangerous to make social media platforms feel compelled or coerced to host content which they believe would be destructive to themselves or to the societies in which they operate.
"The dildo of consequence rarely comes lubed." -- Eileen Rose

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Re: Whatever will he do to occupy his time now?

Post by Econoline »

I guess it's time to post this again:
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Crackpot
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Re: Whatever will he do to occupy his time now?

Post by Crackpot »

So were you violating Locateks rights Gob?
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Bicycle Bill
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Re: Whatever will he do to occupy his time now?

Post by Bicycle Bill »

Gob wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:09 pm
Interesting analogy, but we are talking about a major political figure, (love him or loathe him, (guess,)) and the decision to prevent him using a service, one which he has communicated to millions with.

It also brings up the interesting new dilemma of handing moral control over international communication to an unelected, wealthy, and uncontrolled, elite. At present the seem to be complying with the needs of the majority, but what if that wee to change? What if Facebook banded all anti-hunt protest groups? Or twitter decided that the word "fuck" was forbidden on their service?
The soon-to-be-former-POTUS is allowed to communicate with anyone he chooses to.  He does not have the right to, let's say, spray-paint his message on the side of my house to do so.

As has been pointed out, Gob, Twitter is a privately-run forum, not a public utility (even though it sometimes seems like it at times).  Whoever runs the forum has the right to set the rules, just as you have the right as moderator of this forum to set the rules for this place.  And if someone, whether it's you, me, or Herr Drumpführer, decides they don't want to follow the rules when playing in your sandbox after being repeatedly warned, you (or the operators/moderators of Twitter or Facebook or YouTube) have every right to kick his butt out.

If he needs to use social media, let him go to MySpace.

And if Facebook or Twitter were to ban the word 'fuck' (and a few others) from their boards, it might make for better reading.
Or at least a new crop of obscenities/euphemisms to replace them.
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Re: Whatever will he do to occupy his time now?

Post by Econoline »

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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
(Okay...not real, but it should be...)
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Re: Whatever will he do to occupy his time now?

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Gob
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Re: Whatever will he do to occupy his time now?

Post by Gob »

Scooter wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:00 pm
You're just saying they are equivalent without any reasoning to explain how.
The saying they were equivalent is mainly yours, I was using an example from history of where such censorship could lead. Digital censorship of social media, COULD become the book burning of today if left unexamined. If we accept "OH it's Trump, it's OK to shut down what he says as I disagree with it," where does that lead/end?
If you want to compare a social media platform refusing to host certain content to an analogy about books, it is much closer to a book publisher refusing to publish a manuscript, which I think you would agree is 100% within their rights.
Getting there I think, but not quite. Social media is the major transfer of thoughts and views worldwide these days, like it or loathe it. That it is in the hands of unelected "owners" to decide on what we can and cannot read is somewhat interesting. I think it's more like the BBC refusing to host Bojo because they don't like his attitude to TV licensing.
Now, if a social media platform were to hack its way into some other platform and delete the content of one or more of its users, that would be the equivalent of book burning.
Or if social media owners decided to ban certain political perspectives...
Digital segregation? Isn't that more dangerous than allowing the free flow of thought and information on the major platforms?


I think it is far more dangerous to make social media platforms feel compelled or coerced to host content which they believe would be destructive to themselves or to the societies in which they operate.
There you have it. If THEYT decide, what checks and balances are in place to manage the outcomes of that? Clause 28 springs to mind here. How would you feel if Twitter and Facebook decided to go down that route.


(See, we can have a sensible discussion on the matter, if you try...)
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Scooter
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Re: Whatever will he do to occupy his time now?

Post by Scooter »

I'll have to start by rejecting the premise that Trump's accounts were terminated due to his political positions. He was given free rein for years to spew all manner of vitriol and other assorted nonsense, in flagrant violation of terms of service that would have gotten anyone else banned. It was only when his lies about COVID became a threat to public health that his posts became subjected to factchecking. And now, after having used social media to foment one insurrectionist riot and, in its aftermath, to encourage more of the same, social media platforms have recognized that continuing to give him access would constitute a grave threat to public safety. And so they turfed him, and rightly so.
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Re: Whatever will he do to occupy his time now?

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

This site is social media. I don't think it's made Gob as wealthy as Mark Z or Jack D (he's working on it - he can almost taste the 28 year old Scotch he can buy all he wants when he gets there) but in essence, we all agree that Gob could delete any post he dislikes and there is nothing we could do. Except, of course, vote with our feet and go to Reddit or whatever. It's probably in the T&C we said OK to when we signed up.

I really do not have a problem with that.

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Gob
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Re: Whatever will he do to occupy his time now?

Post by Gob »

OK, then I'll concede that one Scoot, that is a well reasoned paragraph there.

Though my underlying concerns remain.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Re: Whatever will he do to occupy his time now?

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

A very interesting piece in the NYT today about social media and what drives it. The NYT 'media columnist' is Ben Smith who was editor-in-chief at BuzzFeed. He tells the story of a man who was hired by BuzzFeed to edit daft videos but ended up in the Capitol attack. A central paragraph is this one:
“His politics have been guided by platform metrics,” reflected Andrew Gauthier, who was a top video producer at BuzzFeed and later worked for Joseph R. Biden Jr.’s presidential campaign. “You always think that evil is going to come from movie villain evil, and then you’re like — oh no, evil can just start with bad jokes and nihilistic behavior that is fueled by positive reinforcement on various platforms.”
You can read the whole column here.

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Whatever will he do to occupy his time now?

Post by BoSoxGal »

Only if you subscribe to the NYT.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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Re: Whatever will he do to occupy his time now?

Post by Burning Petard »

Gob 'the free flow of thought' has brought America to its knees. As Mark Twain said, lies get around the world twice while the truth is getting its shoes on.

snailgate

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Re: Whatever will he do to occupy his time now?

Post by Econoline »

BoSoxGal wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:32 pm
Only if you subscribe to the NYT.
Here ya go.
THE MEDIA EQUATION

We Worked Together on the Internet. Last Week, He Stormed the Capitol.
At BuzzFeed, we followed the signals of social media. A young employee followed them all the way to Charlottesville and Capitol Hill.


By Ben Smith
Jan. 10, 2021


He fit in as well as anyone did at our Los Angeles studio, a place full of ambitious misfits with an unusual gift. They knew how to make web videos people wanted to watch.

His real name was Anthime Joseph Gionet, though he preferred others. His value to BuzzFeed was clear: He’d do anything for the Vine, the short video platform that had a brief cultural moment before being crushed by Instagram and Snapchat in 2017.

Once, he poured a gallon of milk on his face and a clip of it drew millions of views, back when mostly harmless stunts amused millions of American viewers on the platform.

He was, in that way, a natural for BuzzFeed when he arrived in the spring of 2015, where I was editor in chief, overseeing the website. Mr. Gionet was hired to run the Vine account for our video operation, and his job mostly consisted of editing down to six seconds the silly, fun videos his colleagues produced. Within months, he took over a BuzzFeed Twitter account, too, drawing on his same intuition for what kind of video people would share.

We were better than anyone in those days at making things for social media, mostly lists and quizzes and short videos, but also occasionally spectacular live streams, most famously the one where two of my colleagues exploded a watermelon, one rubber band at a time.

And so the language I heard from Mr. Gionet, now 33, on his livestream last Wednesday was familiar. “We’ve got over 10,000 people live, watching, let’s go!” he said excitedly. “Hit that follow button — I appreciate you guys.”

Mr. Gionet was standing inside the trashed office of Senator Jeff Merkley of Oregon, streaming from one of the few platforms yet to ban him, alongside other Trump loyalists who played with the telephone receiver and draped themselves over the furniture. It seemed an apt conclusion to a recent career arc that some might see as trolling or internet pranks, but is probably best described as performative violence.

After I saw Mr. Gionet, I called up some of my old colleagues, who recalled him with a mixture of perplexity and repulsion. He was sensitive and almost desperate to be liked, they said, once getting extremely upset when someone made fun of his thick mustache and blond mullet. Two of his closest friends at the office at the time had different ethnic backgrounds and gender identities than he did, and they sometimes bonded over a sense of being outsiders. One of those friends remembered him as a sad character who didn’t really express political views beyond the broadly bro-ey and insensitive culture of Vine, and who confided that he was haunted by a lonely childhood in Alaska. He seemed, three of them said, to be missing something — to be hollow inside.

As the 2016 election took hold, he started to flirt with a political persona. He first put a Bernie Sanders portrait on his desk, two former colleagues said. Then, he moved on to wearing MAGA hats around the office, which raised eyebrows among his more progressive, if fairly apolitical, co-workers, though that was when some people still imagined the far right could be “ironic.”

When he left BuzzFeed later that year to work as the “tour manager” for Milo Yiannopoulos, a darling of the racist and anti-Semitic “alt-right,” colleagues were momentarily shocked. Then, they scrolled through Mr. Gionet’s Twitter account, where his increasingly vile statements were getting him retweets from far-right figures, and realized that they shouldn’t have been.

Still, it’s not clear what Mr. Gionet actually believes, if anything. And really, I’m not sure I care.

This isn’t a sympathetic profile of a young man gone wrong. I can’t muster much pity for a guy who, before he was attacking his Capitol, spent his time shooting some kind of bottled irritant (he called it “content spray”) into the eyes of innocent people for YouTube views and shouting at store clerks who asked him to wear a mask.

To me, this story is about something different, a sort of social media power that we helped sharpen at BuzzFeed that can exert an almost irresistible gravitational pull.

If you haven’t had the experience of posting something on social media that goes truly viral, you may not understand its profound emotional attraction. You’re suddenly the center of a digital universe, getting more attention from more people than you ever have. The rush of affirmation can be giddy, and addictive. And if you have little else to hold on to, you can lose yourself to it.

Even as we sought to make our work spread at BuzzFeed, we faced constraints — by truth in our news division, by hewing to a broadly positive set of values on our entertainment side. But Mr. Gionet ultimately broke loose of those boundaries, seeming to follow the signals he found on social media without any scruple. The only through line was his desire to build an audience. He was boosting Bernie Sanders before he was chanting anti-Semitic slogans in Charlottesville, Va., then temporarily recanting those extreme views and later committing violent crimes to get views on YouTube. He built an audience among coronavirus deniers and then, when he apparently contracted the disease, posted the screenshot of his own positive test to Instagram with a tearful emoji. A few weeks later, he joined the pro-Trump uprising in the Capitol.

“His politics have been guided by platform metrics,” reflected Andrew Gauthier, who was a top video producer at BuzzFeed and later worked for Joseph R. Biden Jr.’s presidential campaign. “You always think that evil is going to come from movie villain evil, and then you’re like — oh no, evil can just start with bad jokes and nihilistic behavior that is fueled by positive reinforcement on various platforms.”

And so Mr. Gionet’s story isn’t quite the familiar one of a lonely young man in his bedroom falling down a rabbit hole of videos that poison his worldview. It’s the story of a man being rewarded for being a violent white nationalist, and getting the attention and affirmation that he’s apparently desperate for.

We spent a lot of time at BuzzFeed thinking about how to optimize our content for an online audience; he optimized himself.

When he was arrested in Scottsdale, Ariz., last month for spraying mace into the eyes of a bouncer, an officer reported that Mr. Gionet “informed me that he was a ‘influencer’ and had a large following on social media,” according to a police report. He was released on his own recognizance, a Scottsdale police spokesman said, and is awaiting trial. Nonetheless, in the Capitol, he yelled “A.C.A.F.” — All Cops Are Friends (though the original meaning of the acronym is less friendly).

His story leaves me wondering what share of blame those of us who pioneered the use of social media to deliver information deserve at this moment. Did we, along with the creators of those platforms, help open Pandora’s box?

I didn’t work directly with Mr. Gionet. But in 2012, I did hire a writer named Benny Johnson who was cultivating a voice that blended social media savvy and right-wing politics. I thought, wrongly, of his politics at the time as just conservative. And I imagined him thriving, as conservative writers have done for generations in mainstream newsrooms, where they shared their colleagues’ interest in finding shared facts.

I was slow to realize that his interests weren’t journalistic, or even ideological, as much as they were aesthetic, thrilled by the imagery of raw power. In the tradition of authoritarian propagandists, he was awed by neoclassical buildings, guns and, later, Donald Trump’s crowds. And, after we fired him for plagiarism in 2014, he went on to lead the content arm of Mr. Trump’s youth wing, Turning Point USA, and host a show on Newsmax. Last week, he was cheerleading attempts to overturn the election (though he pulled back when the violence began and later blamed leftists for it). He’s also selling his skills in the “viral political storytelling” that we worked together on at BuzzFeed to a generation of new right-wing figures like Representative Lauren Boebert, who has won attention for vowing to bring her handgun to work in Congress. (Neither Mr. Gionet nor Mr. Johnson responded to email inquiries.)

While we were refining the new practice of social media at BuzzFeed, we were slow to realize that the far right was watching closely and eventually imitating us. Jonah Peretti, who founded The Huffington Post as well as BuzzFeed, was surprised when Steve Bannon, who ran Breitbart, recalled to a writer that he’d borrowed elements of his strategy from Mr. Peretti in the run-up to the 2016 election. Mr. Bannon told me before that election, in an interview in Trump Tower, that he was surprised we hadn’t turned BuzzFeed to pure Bernie Sanders boosterism, as Breitbart did for Donald Trump. He noted, probably correctly, that the traffic for a pro-Sanders propaganda outlet would have greatly exceeded what we got for fair coverage of the Democratic primary.

“Some of the innovative things we did early on, in understanding social media and digital media, have been taken up by alt-right groups, racist groups, MAGA groups,” my old boss, Mr. Peretti, told me in an interview last week. But Mr. Peretti, an eternal optimist, noted that some of the same social mechanisms that Mr. Gionet exploited were also crucial to the sweeping progressive social movements of the last few years, from Black Lives Matter to #MeToo. “The story’s not done and there’s an opportunity to fight for a good internet,” he said. (Disclosure: I don’t cover BuzzFeed extensively in this column, beyond leaning on what I learned during my time there, and The Times has required that I not do so until I divest my stock options in the company.)

I’m already hearing what seem to be two competing explanations of what happened in Washington last week: that the overwhelmingly white, sometimes overtly racist, mob embodied old, deep unexpurgated American evil; or that social media reshaped some Americans’ blank slate identities into something radical.

But Mr. Gionet’s story shows how those explanations don’t really conflict. A man his colleagues saw as empty and driftless turned his identity into a kind of a mirror of that old American evil, and has become what many Americans told him they wanted him to be.

At one point in Mr. Gionet’s livestream during the siege of the Capitol, an unseen voice off camera warns that President Trump “would be very upset” with the antics of the rioters.

“No, he’ll be happy,” Mr. Gionet responded. “We’re fighting for Trump.”

Ben Smith is the media columnist. He joined The Times in 2020 after eight years as founding editor in chief of BuzzFeed News. Before that, he covered politics for Politico, The New York Daily News, The New York Observer and The New York Sun.
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BoSoxGal
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Re: Whatever will he do to occupy his time now?

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Thanks, it’s a good piece I’m glad I had the chance to read it.

The other day I posted my introductory post to a Facebook border collies fan page, with the obligatory picture of my Riley. She has a really unique freckled face and draws attention wherever we go - I got close to 300 likes loves & cares on that post and it was a little bit thrilling. My home care client has been urging me to start an Instagram for Riley (Life of . . . ), but I just can’t be arsed - even though I know such pursuits can be successfully monetized.

Anyway, I can sure see how those with weak personalities could be drawn into heavy reliance on the positive feedback loop available from the various internet echo chambers. Add to that heady mix the lure of conspiracy theories and the toxic fuel of white grievance and you’ve got a recipe for disaster. I don’t know how we fix this mess that social media has made of us.

Does anyone else have any good ideas?
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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Re: Whatever will he do to occupy his time now?

Post by Bicycle Bill »

BoSoxGal wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:13 pm
Thanks, it’s a good piece I’m glad I had the chance to read it.

The other day I posted my introductory post to a Facebook border collies fan page, with the obligatory picture of my Riley. She has a really unique freckled face and draws attention wherever we go - I got close to 300 likes loves & cares on that post and it was a little bit thrilling. My home care client has been urging me to start an Instagram for Riley (Life of . . . ), but I just can’t be arsed - even though I know such pursuits can be successfully monetized.

Anyway, I can sure see how those with weak personalities could be drawn into heavy reliance on the positive feedback loop available from the various internet echo chambers. Add to that heady mix the lure of conspiracy theories and the toxic fuel of white grievance and you’ve got a recipe for disaster. I don’t know how we fix this mess that social media has made of us.

Does anyone else have any good ideas?
Do like I do ... eschew any of it.  About the only 'social media' platforms upon which I have a presence is this one, a bulletin board dedicated to Jimmy Buffett, "Straight Dope" (for the games only), and a fourth one board especially for fans/participants of the Great Iowa Bicycle Ride.
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Re: Whatever will he do to occupy his time now?

Post by BoSoxGal »

I could (and do) stay off social media for days at a time, but some can’t quit it at all. Or don’t even want to try because there are lots of positive aspects to it as far as staying connected to far flung family and friends.

We really need a national conversation on radicalization via social media - including forums structured like this one, but focused on Q or white supremacy, et al. - and how we meet that challenge while also preserving the relative freedom of the interwebs. Or whether that’s possible, or even a good objective.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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Gob
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Re: Whatever will he do to occupy his time now?

Post by Gob »

German Chancellor Angela Merkel has hit out at Twitter’s decision to permanently ban President Trump from the social media platforming, insisting that rules relating to freedom of speech should be made by lawmakers, not private corporate companies.

A spokesperson for the outgoing German leader told reporters at a press conference in Berlin: “The fundamental right to freedom of opinion is a fundamental right of elementary importance, and this fundamental right can be interfered with, but through the law and within the framework defined by the legislature, not according to the decision of the management of social media platforms.

“From this point of view, the Chancellor considers it problematic that the accounts of the US president have been permanently blocked.”


https://foxhole.news/2021/01/12/trump-f ... Hi-wwcglnM
Me and Ange on the same side, whatever next...
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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