The Murder of OBL (UBL if you prefer)

[dales]

Your hate becomes you, D/M.

[Lord Jim]

This goes to the heart of the problem we have in this country today....

The tendency on the part of some on both sides of the political divide to view those they disagree with not as "adversaries"; but as" enemies"...

To see them not as fellow Americans who though they may be misguided, misinformed or flat out wrong, nevertheless share an honest and sincere desire for the best for our country....

But rather as some sort evil group out to "destroy America" with whom no compromise is possible....

The good news is that the vast majority of the American people do not fall into these camps....(polling consistently demonstrates that by huge margins most Americans want those in both parties to work together to find solutions to the problems we face)

The bad news is, that the people who do fall into these camps get far more media attention than those who don't, (making the problem look worse than it actually is).

And they also have an influence on the process of nominating candidates (for offices at all levels) disproportionate to their numbers such that even responsible candidates in both parties pander to them and the whole debate gets skewed.

[Sue U]

fellow Americans who though they may be misguided, misinformed or flat out wrong, nevertheless share an honest and sincere desire for the best for our country....

Well, if it's any comfort, I've always seen you that way, Jim.

[Lord Jim]

fellow Americans who though they may be misguided, misinformed or flat out wrong, nevertheless share an honest and sincere desire for the best for our country....

Well, if it's any comfort, I've always seen you that way, Jim.

And I you, Sue...

[Gob]

Get a room, and a big jar of baby oil, you two...

[Lord Jim]

To further elaborate on this point... (Lord Jim said, warming to his theme)

I recently saw a freshman Congressman interviewed about the vote on raising the debt ceiling (I don't recall his name, but I am embarrassed to say that he is a member of my Party)

He said that while he was willing to "compromise", he was not willing to "make a deal"....

"I was not sent here to make deals" he said....


As though "making a deal" was some sort of immoral act....

Well, Earth to Idiot Freshman Congressman :

To "make a deal" is precisely why you were sent "here"....(meaning Congress)

That's what the legislative process is all about...

You should have learned that in your high school American Government class...

Though they all speak reverently about him, I am absolutely convinced that there are some in my party today, who would consider even Ronald Reagan to be a "RINO" were he a part of the current political scene...

Mr. Reagan, though always a man of principle who pressed vigorously for his positions, was also , (going back to his days as Governor of California and throughout his Presidency) a practical politician who was willing to compromise and "make deals" ....

And he never saw those who disagreed with him as "enemies" who wanted to "destroy America"...

[Scooter]

I'm not sure if some of them are just bluffing when they muse that they are prepared to let the government default on its debts, as a means of bringing back some "sanity" to public finances...

or if they are really that completely moronic.

[Sean]

But what about those whose opinions are not coloured by political bias?

I myself am not 100% convinced about the legality of this killing.

[Lord Jim]

But what about those whose opinions are not coloured by political bias?

I myself am not 100% convinced about the legality of this killing.

Sean I'm sorry, but I believe your view is colored by political bias...

It's just coming from the left rather than the right....

Michael Moore ( not exactly a right winger) has expressed much the same view Dave has, saying:

Those who are against a trial for bin Laden are "saying that you hate being an American. You hate what we stand for, you hate what our constitution stands for."

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/m ... oul-186201

[Timster]

Just a side note: The killing is done.

Swift Justice? After Ten years: unlikely. Who can tell? Is he really dead? Who can tell?

Has "Terrorism" been abated? I doubt it. Who can tell?

Do we still have two wars on sovereign territory with no end in sight? I can tell.

Do we still have a war on Civil Liberties in America? I can tell.

Do we still have a Monstrous deficit resulting from those misguided actions? I can tell.

Do you want my opinion on how hopelessly this will all end? You don't want it. Fuck you.

[Sean]

But what about those whose opinions are not coloured by political bias?

I myself am not 100% convinced about the legality of this killing.

Sean I'm sorry, but I believe your view is colored by political bias...

It's just coming from the left rather than the right....

Michael Moore ( not exactly a right winger) has expressed much the same view Dave has, saying:

Those who are against a trial for bin Laden are "saying that you hate being an American. You hate what we stand for, you hate what our constitution stands for."

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/m ... oul-186201

Well Jim, from your post it seems that you are going to believe that it is a 'left' or 'right' thing no matter what anybody says. Fairly blinkered I must say...
May I respectfully ask the reasoning behind your 'knowledge' of my political views so that I can set you straight?

[Lord Jim]

May I respectfully ask the reasoning behind your 'knowledge' of my political views so that I can set you straight?

Well for one thing you've expressed views favoring the abolition of The Monarchy, which makes you a Bolshie for a start...

But laying those Communistic notions aside...

Well Jim, from your post it seems that you are going to believe that it is a 'left' or 'right' thing no matter what anybody says. Fairly blinkered I must say...

Fair enough....

Let me ask then...

Why do you feel some discomfort about the US going after (and as it happened taking out) the mastermind of a terrorist attack that killed 3000 innocent people on US soil? (including over 200 Brits, BTW)

[Sean]

May I respectfully ask the reasoning behind your 'knowledge' of my political views so that I can set you straight?

Well for one thing you've expressed views favoring the abolition of The Monarchy, which makes you a Bolshie for a start...

Have I? If I have given that impression it was not intentional. I couldn't really give a fuck either way about the monarchy.

Maybe that's what you misinterpreted...

But laying those Communistic notions aside...

Well Jim, from your post it seems that you are going to believe that it is a 'left' or 'right' thing no matter what anybody says. Fairly blinkered I must say...

Fair enough....

Let me ask then...

Why do you feel some discomfort about the US going after (and as it happened taking out) the mastermind of a terrorist attack that killed 3000 innocent people on US soil? (including over 200 Brits, BTW)

First of all it only matters to me that people died regardless of their nationality.

My view is simple and non-political (much like myself in fact...). People do shitty things. Some people do incedibly shitty things. This however does not give those who have been shat upon the right to break any laws, be they local laws or the Geneva Convention in retribution. It's called vigilanteism.

Now I'm not saying that the US have broken any laws... I'm just saying that I'm not yet 100% convinced that they haven't.

[Lord Jim]

This however does not give those who have been shat upon the right to break any laws, be they local laws or the Geneva Convention in retribution.

Well...

I don't see any countries, (including the Pakistanis, despite all their regime's huffing and puffing...) rushing to the UN Security Council seeking a condemnation of our actions...

[Lord Jim]

Come to think of it, we haven't seen a whole lot of "Death To America" stuff over this anywhere throughout the Muslim world...

There have been a few demonstrations, but they haven't been very large...

the demonstrations for democracy in the Arab Muslim countries have been much larger...

There haven't even been any demonstrations in Iran....(of course the Iranian government is unlikely to want to have many of it's citizens converging en masse...given the direction that might take...)

[Sean]

So the end justifies the means?

[Lord Jim]

So the end justifies the means?

I've always embraced the view that there is no hard and fast "one size fits all" answer to that question....

I believe that standard has to be applied on a case by case basis...

In this case?

As Sarah would say...

You betcha...

The ends totally justified the means....

Personally, I don't see a huge moral conundrum involved here...

It looks pretty clear cut to me....

[Sean]

I'm talking about more of a legal than a moral conundrum Jim...

Let me put it another way. Assuming that nobody else was hurt or killed, can you envisage a situation where the filling of Bin Laden could not be justified?

[Timster]

Well, it's not like we are parading down the avenue with his head on a pike.

But frankly- They should have spent the 85 cent bullet a long time ago. Rather than the life blood of good soldiers (Men and Women of all countries involved the last ten years.) not to mention the Billions of dollars and the irrevocable loss of the good will of the entire planet... *Spit!*

[Lord Jim]

Let me put it another way. Assuming that nobody else was hurt or killed, can you envisage a situation where the filling of Bin Laden could not be justified?

Well, my understanding is that the rules of engagement that our forces were operating under were that if Bin Ladin had thrown up his hands and surrendered, we would have taken him alive...

If he did anything other than raise his arms in the air, shooting him would be completely justified...

Our government maintains he did not do that. I suppose we'll never know for sure...

And in this case, I'm good with that.