70th anniversary of the Battle of the Coral Sea

[Andrew D]

Then then that New Orleans thing happened after it was all done.

Unfortunately for that revisionist view of history, it was not "all done". The Treaty of Ghent explicitly provided that it would not become binding until "the ratifications [were] mutually exchanged". (Article 11.)

The Battle of New Orleans took place more than a month before the Treaty of Ghent had any effect at all. (It took place in January; the US Senate did not even ratify the treaty until Februaruy.) It took place when the US and Britain were still at war, and it was decisive.

Read the treaty. Before the Battle of New Orleans, the treaty was nothing -- merely a proposal. The ass-kicking which the US inflicted upon Britain sealed the deal.

When considering the War of 1812, many Americans focus on the U.S. Navy's stirring victories over the Royal Navy in frigate duels. The British, however, emerged from the conflict with total command of the oceans and broad experience in blockade and amphibious operations

The US did not fight Britain for "total command of the oceans". The US fought Britain for two things, and the US won both of them: equal treatment as an independent sovereign on the high seas and the end of impressment (including the return of impressed seamen). Everything else is just window-dressing. The US wanted two things, and the US forced Britain to give the US both of them.

And oddly enough, the first time was all down to the Americans not wanting to pay their fair share of the cost of protecting them from marauders on sea and on land. Cheap bastards

"Protecting". Yeah, the way the Mafia offers "protection". What the Americans were pissed off about was, among many other things, that Britain had "plundered our Seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns and destroyed the Lives of our People." The British were prominent among the marauders.

And, yes, it is odd that someone who claims that the US did not want to "pay [its] fare share of the cost of protecting them from marauders" would oppose a demand that others "pay their fair share of the cost of protecting them from marauders".

You can stand at the first red robot with the guys selling mobile phone chargers, sunglasses and with "David - lapa, electric, plummer" written on cardboard. I just take the N1 to Eufees, past Noordhoek to Milner, hang a left at the roundie and go on Wilcox to Rudolf Greyling (that's pronounced "Hryling") and then on the N8 to the airport road. Not even one traffic light for over 25km.

Hey, if you're willing to do without the services provided by the US, fine. I am not suggesting that people pay for services which they do not want. Go it alone. Good luck with that.

[Rick]

The US did not fight Britain for "total command of the oceans". The US fought Britain for two things, and the US won both of them: equal treatment as an independent sovereign on the high seas and the end of impressment (including the return of impressed seamen). Everything else is just window-dressing. The US wanted two things, and the US forced Britain to give the US both of them.

And that is as they say...history.

[MajGenl.Meade]

"plundered our Seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns and destroyed the Lives of our People."

All lies from the propaganda machine written a year after the rebellion (note: rebellion against legitimate government) started. By that time both sides were doing a lot of plundering, ravaging, burning and destroying - including the rebels shooting and intimidating the Tories - ie. their own people who disagreed with them.

What really ticked off the New England patriots was the expectation of actually having to pay taxes to the government to support their own protection which they constantly cried out for and accepted until it got time to pay the piper.

And don't give me that "we don't have a voice in Parliament" crap - neither did most Englishmen. And somehow Canada and Australia etc managed independence without all that acrimony. No sorry mate - those Yankees were just grubby little merchants trying to hog the pie - and they did too.

Unfortunately for the New Orleans scenario, neither army knew that the war was effectively over - had they done so, combat would not have ensued. No doubt who won the fight of course - dats a fak jak.

And in conclusion.... no, the irony is that a person who thinks Australia should pay to be protected comes from a country that refused to pay the legal and proper invoices when presented.

I don't think either of them should have (have had) to pay - but the colonists actually begged for help whereas in Oz they just shrug and carry on rock-climbing and falling on their heads drunk

Meade

Edit: spelling correction highlighted

[Andrew D]

And don't give me that "we don't have a voice in Parliament" crap - neither did most Englishmen.

So the British system was a tyranny which extended itself not only over its colonies, but also over most of the "mother country".

"Don't claim that we're a tyranny over you -- we're a tyranny over damn near everyone!"

Why could it be that I think that a meager defense?

[MajGenl.Meade]

No, the development of parliamentary government (note: which happened in what you call a tyranny) was a gradual one over the course of time. It was a change from monarchical to democratic structures, far from complete until the early 20th century (women voting).

The USA of course went through similar evolution, the vote being extended gradually from the propertied to the unpropertied and finall a universal franchise.

The difference of course is that the UK recognised aristocracy for what it was and named it; the USA pretended it had none when it did; it was after all a very 'modern' state - it was a hip-ocracy

As to why you should think it such a meagre defence, I direct you to your own current signature line*


Meade

ETA:

*A sane mind is praiseworthy, and good for nothing

[rubato]

The us was proven the superior naval power twice over. We preyed on Brit. Shipping at will during the war of liberation.

Our ships commanded all waters we sailed. Where we were you were sheep to our wolves.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Well yes, but leaving that aside......