Newtie embraces evil.

[Gob]

Ok, what would be an acceptable distance?

It will be two blocks from "Ground Zero"

It shouldn't be built anywhere near there.

How about a couple of miles away?

I'm sure there would be no complaints.

Ok, That's where it gets tough, why is 2 miles different to 200 yards, in reality? Niether will be in sight of ground zero

[Joe Guy]

Ok, what would be an acceptable distance?

Ok, That's where it gets tough, why is 2 miles different to 200 yards, in reality? Niether will be in sight of ground zero

2 miles might be out of sight of ground zero, but not 200 yards.

The world trade center occupied 16 acres.

[rubato]

Timothy McVeigh killed more people per terrorist (168 killed and 680 injured) but no one is calling for abolishing christian churches within a mile of his slaughter of innocents.

The anti-Muslim bias is anti-American in its values and evil in its effects.


yrs,
rubato

[rubato]

"...

Unless, of course, you are conceding that Americans are far more bigoted than the Japanese ever could be...

Speaking as someone who has great admiration for Japanese culture I have to say they are the most deeply racist people on earth. To their detriment.

yrs,
rubato

[Gob]

Strange bedfellows you keep guys...

Pamela Geller jokes on a video blog about being dressed 'in my burka' while warning of Islamic 'world domination'. Pamela Geller is on a mission to save the free world and she's doing it, on this occasion, in a bikini as she writhes around in the sea.




Geller has been at the forefront of drumming up opposition to the centre, two blocks from Ground Zero, through an array of websites such as the Freedom Defence Initiative (FDI) and Stop Islamisation of America (SIOA). They have become increasingly influential as conservative politicians exploit anti-Muslim sentiment before November's congressional and state elections.

SIOA is behind a series of advertisements opposing the "Ground Zero Mega Mosque", as Geller calls it, which appeared on the sides of New York buses this week picturing a plane flying into one of the World Trade Centre towers and a mosque divided by the question: Why Here?

Geller's answer is that the planned centre is viewed by Muslims as a "triumphal" monument built on "conquered land".

As extreme as that may seem, Geller and her views have been embraced by leading politicians such as Newt Gingrich, the former Republican speaker of the US House of Representatives, and John Bolton, the conservative former US ambassador to the UN, who are scheduled to speak at a rally against the controversial New York Islamic centre organised by Geller for September 11.

Gingrich this week likened the planned centre to putting Nazi signs outside the Holocaust museum.

The campaign against the centre also has the backing of Liz Cheney, daughter of the former vice-president and prominent conservative activist in her own right.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/au ... am-america

[loCAtek]

Not here, nor anywhere;

Planned Tennessee Mosque Also Gets Mixed Reaction


So, it's not about Ground Zero is it?

[rubato]

No Catholic Churches near the Alamo! No Bonsai near Pearl Harbor!

yrs,
rubato

[rubato]

No Anglican/Episcopalians in Washington DC!

yrs,
rubato

[Gob]

She's quite hot, isn't she?

[loCAtek]

Temptation tests spirit; this is new?


She couldn't rationalize so, titillates?

That's a new one in debate fallacies, which were based on the written word, but visual strawman may be included in there.

[Gob]

Did you get bit by Steve Lo?

[loCAtek]

Yin and Yang in one post is weird, yes.


That chick, claiming to be political while sexual is weird, too.

[loCAtek]

No Catholic Churches near the Alamo! No Bonsai near Pearl Harbor!

yrs,
rubato

I'll never understand these comparisons to Pearl Harbor, or more accurately, The Arizona Memorial. (Pearl Harbor, and most of the rest of Hawaii, is largely kept afloat by Japanese tourists and wedding parties. Where here on the mainland, our public signs often are written in English/Spanish; the signs in Hawaii are English/Japanese. What isn't state owned is Japanese property.)

Anyone who's been there can well see, the Japanese are openly welcomed and respected at theWWII Valor in the Pacific National Monument You notice it doesn't say 'American' Valor, or 'Victory' in the Pacific?
Inside the museum, you'll find a lot of tributes to the Japanese Navy and a portrait of Admiral Yamamoto hangs proudly there, because it really was a very well orchestrated strike.

Granted, the WWII VPNM was built later than the Arizona Memorial (as a museum it's been there for decades, it was made a National Monument in 2008 by President Bush).

That still doesn't make these kinds of statements;

Would it have been appropriate to erect a Shinto shrine in the vicinity of Pearl Harbor nine years after the attack on our fleet?

...any less ignorant.

I'll repeat it here; Literally, US and Japanese Sailors and Pilots settled their grievances long ago; and all are National Treasures to the Shrine. At the 50th Anniversary, both forces; once enemies, embraced in comradeship and friendship, and gave honor to the event.

...that's right I said SHRINE. The Arizona Memorial itself, IS a shrine. <facepalm>

[Big RR]

Re the Arizona memorial, here's what happened to me. I went there a while back when my daughters were 10 and 8. Prior to going to the memorial you attend a screening of a film on the Pearl Harbor attack, and it is pretty graphic and frank (no "yellow peril" but a lot about the unprovoked attack, etc.--all true, but if I were japanese, I'd be uncomfortable--much as I would as US citizen at the Hiroshima memorial if a similar film were shown). After the film, we went out to the memorial on a boat and it is quite moving; I would guess half our boat was Japanese tourists, and they behaved with the decorum and respect one would expect from anyone visiting a grave site. When we were out on the memorial, my older daughter made some comment about the Japanese man next to us and how he shouldn't be there because he "killed all those people". I told her that was a long time ago, and neither she, I, nor this man had even been born--I also told her that since the war Japan and the US were good friends. The man was visibly embarassed, and I made an attempt to apologize and talk to him, telling him that I think the graphic film got to her (he admitted it made him uncomfortable as well). I then joked that it was ironic we were both standing on the memorial using the same japanese camera (a nikon) and this broke the ice; he talked a bit to my daughter as well, and i think she felt a little ashamed of what she said. I won't say we left as friends, but I do think we (and especilly my daughter) had a better appreciation of one another by virtue of having been there. And I think my daughter learned there is a big difference between judging people by their race and as individuals--she still talks about this over 10 years later.

IMHO, that's the point of memorials and shrines and cultural centers, etc.--to get people to discuss what happened and listen to each other. Like my daughter did at the memorial, there are some people who hold a childish and ill-informed grudge against all moslems after the Sep 11 attacks, and refuse to see them as individuals, the vast majority of whom had nothing whatsoever to do with the attack. If the center encourages dialaogue, of whatever nature, that cannot be a bad thing, anymore than Japanese visiting the Arizona memorial is.

[Grim Reaper]

To give an idea of how loony Geller is, she once suggested that Malcom X was Obama's real father.

[Gob]

Nutty as a fruitcake, still, bet she fucks like a beast though.

[Jarlaxle]

Pearl Harbor and 9/11 is no comparison. One was a military strike against a purely military target. The other was a terrorist attack against a purely civilian target.

That mosque is no different than a memorial to German WW2 dead at Treblinka or Dachau.

[Lord Jim]

all true, but if I were japanese, I'd be uncomfortable--

Big RR, I sincerely hope that you're not suggesting that would be a good reason not to show the film....

I rather doubt that if we were talking about a graphic film shown before a tour of an American Indian Memorial (or a slave memorial) that you would suggest that it should be sanitized in order to avoid hurting the feelings of white people.

ETA:

Frankly I don't see anything wrong with folks being made a a little "uncomfortable" about unfortunate chapters in their national history. Perhaps it will help to make sure those kinds of behaviors are avoided in the future.

Which is completely different from expecting people who were not even born at the time to feel "guilty" over things they had nothing to do with....Which is why I'm always adamantly opposed to the moronic PC "apologies"....

If it makes someone feel better, or morally superior to want to "apologize" for things they weren't involved in, (like slavery or the treatment of the Indians) then by all means let them do so, as individual citizens, (or as a group if they wish) go ahead...knock yerself out....

But I do not want my government "apologizing" on my behalf for things I had absolutely nothing to do with, thank you very much. I find it both ludicrous and offensive.

Why should we impose on ourselves the concept of "collective guilt" (especially when you're talking about completely different points in time) that we have consistently rejected imposing on others?

[loCAtek]

Here's the stroke of genius that goes with declaring the Arizona Memorial a shrine; it may not specifically be a Shinto shrine, but the cultural etiquette/tradition of the Japanese people dictates that if you are visiting another's home, city or country- you pay your respects to your hosts at their shrines and cultural centers. To not do so is to dishonor yourself.
Every Japanese tourist, visits the Arizona Memorial.

Meaning: showing your adversaries the same respect as your allies, can make an ally of your adversary.

[loCAtek]

Pearl Harbor and 9/11 is no comparison. One was a military strike against a purely military target. The other was a terrorist attack against a purely civilian target.

That mosque is no different than a memorial to German WW2 dead at Treblinka or Dachau.

Except that Al Qaeda are fundamentalist/fanatical Sunnis, and Feisal Abdul Rauf, CEO of Cordoba Initiative, is an Arab-American Sufi.

Perception outside Islam
Dhikr in Omdurman, Sudan. A choreographed Sufi performance on Friday at Qadiriyya event.

Sufi mysticism has long exercised a fascination upon the Western world, and especially its orientalist scholars.[65] Figures like Rumi have become household names in the United States, where Sufism is perceived as quietist and less political.[65]

The Islamic Institute in Mannheim, Germany, which works towards the integration of Europe and Muslims, sees Sufism as particularly suited for interreligious dialogue and intercultural harmonisation in democratic and pluralist societies; it has described Sufism as a symbol of tolerance and humanism – undogmatic, flexible and non-violent.[66]

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