Yet another school shooting

[Lord Jim]

I watched LaPierre's performance on Meet The Press yesterday....

The problem with LaPierre isn't that he's wrong about everything....

When he says that we're not doing a good enough job tracking and treating the mentally ill, he's right about that. When he says we need to do a better job enforcing existing federal gun regulations, he's certainly right about that. (The prosecution rate is appalling.)

His "short term" proposal for providing federal funds to pay for a uniformed regular local police officer in every school, strikes me as a more appealing option than his "long term" proposal for a hodge podge of retired law enforcement and military people performing the role.

A regular cop would have his training and qualifications up to date, and be plugged in directly to the response network. If executed properly, it could even be a program that also helped build and improve community relations, rather than being a shadowy, intimidating presence. (And it might have some appeal to the Administration and even attract some Democratic votes on The Hill, since it would involve money going to a public sector union.)

No, the problem with LaPierre, is the absolute blind spot he has when he adamantly refuses to admit that the weaponry has any role whatsoever in the problem. That attitude is simply surreal. He steadfastly insisted that reducing magazine sizes, and banning assault weapons, and extending background checks to the 40% of gun sales that are conducted privately, "won't do anything" to reduce the number of innocent people killed by firearms. That's just preposterous.

He tried to dismiss anyone who proposed anything that would in anyway address the level of lethality currently available legally in this country as, people who are "trying to destroy the Second Amendment".

On that point, Mr. LaPierre is cordially invited to bite me. There are many millions of staunch defenders of the Second Amendment, (including myself) who won't buy that cynical sort of demagoguery, and who don't accept his absurd and insulting characterization.

I thought David Gregory did a pretty good job of exposing LaPierre's blatant hypocrisy and made him look foolish on the magazine size and assault weapon issues. And he also did a good job of catching LaPierre every time he tried to dodge his questions. (And he did it while behaving like a consummate professional, unlike that buffoon Pierce Morgan.)

I don't think LaPierre did himself or his cause any favors with his performance yesterday.

What's really needed, it seems to me, is an "all of the above" approach, that addresses mental health, enforcement of existing laws, school security, and the availability of the means to fire 30-100 rounds in a matter of seconds.

That last item simply is not on LaPierre's menu.

[Lord Jim]

To return again to the magazine size issue...

It's been said in this thread (or maybe the other one) that a magazine can be changed in 5 seconds. That might not have made a difference in this particular tragedy, where all the victims are six and seven years old with no ability to escape or over power the shooter, but it would make a huge difference in many situations. (It would certainly reduce the body count in day in day out drive by shooting type violence, where the shooter is not going hang around re-loading.)

Here's an article written by Larry Burns, (a Republican Judge, who presided at the Jared Loughner trial) that addresses both the magazine and assault weapon issues, in what I believe is a very intelligent and thoughtful way:

A conservative case for an assault weapons ban

Last month, I sentenced Jared Lee Loughner to seven consecutive life terms plus 140 years in federal prison for his shooting rampage in Tucson. That tragedy left six people dead, more than twice that number injured and a community shaken to its core.

Loughner deserved his punishment. But during the sentencing, I also questioned the social utility of high-capacity magazines like the one that fed his Glock. And I lamented the expiration of the federal assault weapons ban in 2004, which prohibited the manufacture and importation of certain particularly deadly guns, as well as magazines that can hold more than 10 rounds of ammunition.

The ban wasn't all that stringent — if you already owned a banned gun or high-capacity magazine you could keep it, and you could sell it to someone else — but at least it was something.

And it says something that half of the nation's deadliest shootings occurred after the ban expired, including the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary in Newtown, Conn. It also says something that it has not even been two years since Loughner's rampage, and already six mass shootings have been deadlier.

I am not a social scientist, and I know that very smart ones are divided on what to do about gun violence. But reasonable, good-faith debates have boundaries, and in the debate about guns, a high-capacity magazine has always seemed to me beyond them.

Bystanders got to Loughner and subdued him only after he emptied one 31-round magazine and was trying to load another. Adam Lanza, the Newtown shooter, chose as his primary weapon a semiautomatic rifle with 30-round magazines. And we don't even bother to call the 100-rounder that James Holmes is accused of emptying in an Aurora, Colo., movie theater a magazine — it is a drum. How is this not an argument for regulating the number of rounds a gun can fire?

I get it. Someone bent on mass murder who has only a 10-round magazine or revolvers at his disposal probably is not going to abandon his plan and instead try to talk his problems out. But we might be able to take the "mass" out of "mass shooting," or at least make the perpetrator's job a bit harder.

To guarantee that there would never be another Tucson or Sandy Hook, we would probably have to make it a capital offense to so much as look at a gun. And that would create serious 2nd Amendment, 8th Amendment and logistical problems.

So what's the alternative? Bring back the assault weapons ban, and bring it back with some teeth this time. Ban the manufacture, importation, sale, transfer and possession of both assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. Don't let people who already have them keep them. Don't let ones that have already been manufactured stay on the market. I don't care whether it's called gun control or a gun ban. I'm for it.

I say all of this as a gun owner. I say it as a conservative who was appointed to the federal bench by a Republican president. I say it as someone who prefers Fox News to MSNBC, and National Review Online to the Daily Kos. I say it as someone who thinks the Supreme Court got it right in District of Columbia vs. Heller, when it held that the 2nd Amendment gives us the right to possess guns for self-defense. (That's why I have mine.) I say it as someone who, generally speaking, is not a big fan of the regulatory state.

I even say it as someone whose feelings about the NRA mirror the left's feelings about Planned Parenthood: It has a useful advocacy function in our deliberative democracy, and much of what it does should not be controversial at all.

And I say it, finally, mindful of the arguments on the other side, at least as I understand them: that a high-capacity magazine is not that different from multiple smaller-capacity magazines; and that if we ban assault weapons and high-capacity magazines one day, there's a danger we would ban guns altogether the next, and your life might depend on you having one.

But if we can't find a way to draw sensible lines with guns that balance individual rights and the public interest, we may as well call the American experiment in democracy a failure.

There is just no reason civilians need to own assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. Gun enthusiasts can still have their venison chili, shoot for sport and competition, and make a home invader flee for his life without pretending they are a part of the SEAL team that took out Osama bin Laden.

It speaks horribly of the public discourse in this country that talking about gun reform in the wake of a mass shooting is regarded as inappropriate or as politicizing the tragedy. But such a conversation is political only to those who are ideologically predisposed to see regulation of any kind as the creep of tyranny. And it is inappropriate only to those delusional enough to believe it would disrespect the victims of gun violence to do anything other than sit around and mourn their passing. Mourning is important, but so is decisive action.

Congress must reinstate and toughen the ban on assault weapons and high-capacity magazines.

Larry Alan Burns is a federal district judge in San Diego.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/dec/20 ... n-20121220

I hope folks don't just read the highlighted portions; it really is worth reading the entire article. For my money, of all the many words I've heard and read on this since the shooting at Sandy Hook, this is the most spot on perspective I have seen. I agree with every word.

[Rick]

So you didn't like my suggestions, I'm hurt...

[Econoline]

Wow, Jim...good find. That essay is one of best, most sensible pieces on the subject that I've seen in many years. I'm really hopeful that sensible conservative Republicans can lead the way toward something like what Justice Burns proposes, because there's way too much knee-jerk anti-"librul gun-grabber" sentiment that will probably derail any effort by any Democrat to lead the way forward.

[dales]

Where's Charleton Heston when you need him?

[Gob]

Two US volunteer firefighters have been shot dead and two injured while responding to an emergency call in the town of Webster in New York state.

Police said the four were fired upon in an "apparent trap" as they arrived on Monday morning.

The blaze broke out just before 06:00 local time (11:00 GMT) and officers had to evacuate nearby residents in an armoured car.

A gunman has been found dead at the scene, local police say.

The man was 62-year-old William Spengler, Webster Police Chief Gerald Pickering told media.

Spengler appeared to have shot himself in the head, Mr Pickering said.

He had previously served a 17-year jail sentence after being convicted of killing his grandmother.

Spengler's sister is unaccounted for and police fear she may have died in the fire, which engulfed seven houses.

The two dead firefighters were named by police as Tomasz Kaczowka and Mike Chiapperini.

[Grim Reaper]

I was checking my email account when I came across this masterpiece of paranoia:

The primary-school shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, approximately 45 miles from the Colt Arms Factory, is just another one in the long line of government psyops designed to persuade the public to allow the government to take away their guns, and their means to defend themselves against the government and the banksters that the politicians really serve.

The small children murders are designed to create hysterical emotions in women to get them to demand that guns are banned. If that doesn’t work they will continue with their evil agenda with worse and worse atrocities on younger children, until they get their way and disarm the people, so that they cannot fight back against government tyranny.

Newtown is the U.S.A.’s Dunblane, which was orchestrated in Scotland in 1996 by the British establishment, to whip up hysteria in order to ban all handguns from the U.K. It was a follow-up to the Hungerford Massacre in England in 1987, which was carried out by mind-controlled Michael Ryan, who then shot himself so he could not be questioned, and it was used to ban semi-automatic rifles and shotguns.

It’s always the same people behind it – the gun-grabbers who want the people to be defenceless against the gun-grabbers’ employers – the banksters who own all of the politicians. They get their politicians to pass legislation for them, in order to remove the people’s freedoms and means of defending themselves, and enslave them in a draconian police-state, under a mountain of debt, and then exterminate the useless-eaters.

The Dunblane massacre was supposedly carried out by Thomas Hamilton, who was a paedophile and procurer of children, for a high level paedophile ring involving senior members of the Tony Blair Labour-Party shadow-cabinet and others. The massacre served two purposes, it achieved their desired handgun-ban and killed the abused children, so they could not be witnesses against the elite-paedophiles. They then had the findings of the inquiry sealed for 100 years, which is proof of the above.

Like Newtown there were two shooters, Hamilton and a hit-man who shot Hamilton and made it look like Hamilton committed suicide after shooting 16 children, so that he couldn’t be questioned. Hamilton was found in the school gymnasium slumped against a wall and still gurgling, when an off-duty policeman PC Grant McCutcheon entered the gym and saw two semi-automatic pistols, one on either side of Hamilton’s body.

The autopsy revealed that Hamilton was killed with a .38 revolver. These people always slip-up with their crimes. There was no .38 revolver for him to have shot himself with. Thus, there was a second shooter who killed Hamilton.

Similarly, the first reports from Newtown were of two shooters, just like mind-controlled James Holmes in the Denver Batman Cinema massacre, the story then quickly changes to just one.

Columbine was similar, in that a team of shooters in black outfits were seen there and the two accused were on mind-altering prescription-drugs.

Wake up and see the pattern and their modus operandi and don’t fall for it. Never let them take your guns, except from your cold dead hands.

All of these are staged events to whip-up hysterical public support for banning the people from having guns. It works the same in every country – Hungerford in England, Dunblane in Scotland, Port Arthur in Australia and the list in America is endless, because of the Second Amendment and the people having a pro-gun culture. That makes it much more difficult to break the Americans’ love of guns and the Second Amendment, which was put in place to protect the people from the government.

Gun bans work well for tyrants. They worked well for Hitler, Stalin and Chairman Mao, to name just three.

If you want to stop these massacres, wake-up and get rid of the banksters, their puppet-politicians and all gun-grabbers; arm teachers and ban gun-free zones.

From one who can see the pattern and hopes to enable you to see it too.

[Econoline]

[Lord Jim]

I think what Judge Burns says here is key:

Ban the manufacture, importation, sale, transfer and possession of both assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. Don't let people who already have them keep them. Don't let ones that have already been manufactured stay on the market. I

The enforcement on the issue of " people who already have them keep them" may be unworkable in terms of the weapons...

But it certainly shouldn't be in terms of the magazines...

Create a one year grace period and buy-back program on the magazines...

No, The Crips and The Bloods won't be standing in line to turn in their magazines...

But by outlawing over-sized magazines completely, a legal causus belli will be created to confiscate them anywhere, anytime they are found; with attendant stiff penalties...and they will no longer be available legally and openly...."surefire.com", with it's "our 100 round magazines are back ordered, but you can get our 60 round magazines", will go out of business...

And we'll avoid the " Bubba and Chuck Fred Radio Show" (National Lampoon Radio Hour reference) scenario from that video Joe posted with those guys predicting, (quite rightly) that if you "invested" in a magazine that cost $15 that was "grandfathered in" you could turn around and sell it for $100, once new manufacture and distribution of those magazines was declared illegal....

Don't grandfather in the existing magazines. Don't make it possible for investors to see a profit by re-selling them on E-Bay...

Make it illegal to possess magazines with more than 10 rounds. Provide a buy back program, and a reasonable period of time for law abiding citizens to comply with the law.

And then come down with both feet on noncompliance.

[Joe Guy]

Two US volunteer firefighters have been shot dead and two injured while responding to an emergency call in the town of Webster in New York state....

Pay Attention!!!'

[Gob]

I am Joe, I posted that 4 1/2 hours before you did

[Grim Reaper]

One problem with magazines is that they're basically just springs with a frame to hold the bullets in place. Once you get past 30 rounds, things do start to get more complicated though.

And 3d-printing will cause even more headaches as the technology advances. People can already 'print' most of the parts for small firearms, better materials will eventually be developed that will allow for larger and more complete 'printing' of firearms.

Also, it looks like people are already panicking and buying up all the magazines they can now.

[oldr_n_wsr]

Any too and die/machine shop can make a "high" capacity magazine for any caller. Heck, I can do it with the tools in my basement. What someone said before," it's sheet metal and and spring". Conn had an assault weapons ban similar to the federal ban that relapsed.

Seems every multiple shooter, when confronted by firepower, took his own life. Between the time of attack and preventive measures showing up is when the horror took place. Maybe an armed guard would have been shot right off the bat, but maybe the shooter got shot right off hte bat. Without an armed guard we know what happened.

[Econoline]

This might explain the dearth of good, honest research into gun safety and gun violence in the U.S.:

http://www.salon.com/2012/07/25/the_nra ... n_science/

[Gob]

The phones at Red's Trading Post wouldn't stop ringing.

Would-be customers from as far away as New York wanted to know if the Twin Falls, Idaho gun shop had firearms in stock.

Others clamored to find out if their orders had been shipped.

Overwhelmed, gun store manager Ryan Horsley had to do what no employee would ever think of doing just days before Christmas: He disconnected the phone lines for three whole days.

‘We had to shut everything off,’ says Horsley, whose family has owned Red's Trading Post, the state's oldest gun shop, since 1936. ‘We were swamped in the store and online.’



The phones at gun shops across the country are ringing off the hook. Demand for firearms, ammunition and bulletproof gear has surged since the December 14 massacre in Newtown, Connecticut, that took the lives of 20 schoolchildren and six teachers and administrators.

The shooting sparked calls for tighter gun control measures, especially for military-style assault weapons like the ones used in Newtown and in the Aurora, Colorado, movie theater shooting earlier this year.

The prospect of a possible weapons ban has sent gun enthusiasts into a panic and sparked a frenzy of buying at stores and gun dealers nationwide.

Assault rifles are sold out across the country. Rounds of .223 bullets, like those used in the AR-15 type Bushmaster rifle used in Newtown, are scarce. Stores are struggling to restock their shelves.

Gun and ammunition makers are telling retailers they will have to wait months to get more.Store owners who have been in the business for years say they have never seen demand like this before.

When asked how much sales have increased in the past few weeks, Horsley just laughed.



‘We haven't even had a chance to look at it,’ he says. Horsley spends his days calling manufacturers around the country trying to buy more items for the store. Mainly, they tell him he has to wait.

Franklin Armory, a firearm maker in Morgan Hill, California, is telling dealers that it will take six months to fulfill their orders.

The company plans to hire more workers and buy more machines to catch up, says Franklin Armory's President Jay Jacobson.

The shortage is leaving many would-be gun owners empty handed.

William Kotis went to a gun show in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, last weekend hoping to buy a rifle for target shooting. Almost everything was sold out.

‘Assault rifles were selling like crazy,’ says Kotis, who is president and CEO of Kotis Holdings, a real estate development company based in Greensboro. ‘People are stockpiling.’

He left without buying anything.

Luke Orlando's parents were able to get him the 12-gauge shotgun he wanted for Christmas to bird hunt, but his uncle wasn't as lucky.

‘At Christmas dinner, my uncle expressed outrage that after waiting six months to use his Christmas bonus to purchase an AR-15, they are sold out and back ordered over a year,’ says Orlando, 18, a student at the University of Texas.

No organization publicly releases gun sales data. The only way to measure demand is by the number of background checks that are conducted when someone wants to buy a firearm.

Those numbers are released by the Federal Reserve Bureau every month. Data for December is not out yet. But the Federal Bureau of Investigation says that it did 16.8 million firearm background checks as of the end of November, up more than 2 per cent from a year ago.



Eager shoppers: People line up to enter the RK Gun Show.

[rubato]

The "gun show loophole" which enables completely unregulated sales of all types of guns an ammunition, carefully protected by Republicans, accounts for 40% of guns sales in the US.

yrs,
rubato

[Lord Jim]

Thanks for the info on the percentage of sales at gun shows, rube....

I've only posted it about half a dozen times, perhaps someone might have missed it....

BTW, just out of curiosity, did you buy your gun privately, or from a licensed dealer?

[dales]

[Joe Guy]

There are some things I don't understand about the so-called "gun show loophole" that maybe someone more knowledgeable on the subject could answer.

How is the 40% of gun sales from gun shows figure calculated?

Also, I may be wrong, but as I understand it, people who have a Federal Firearms License (FFL) do instant criminal checks when they sell firearms, even when they are selling at gun shows. Is that accounted for in the 40% sales figure?

How does anyone know whether or not a gun that was used in a crime was purchased at a gun show?

Is it correct to assume that all people who sell guns at gun shows don't care who they sell them to?

Just wondering. These are questions that just came to mind after reading through this thread.

[rubato]

There are some things I don't understand about the so-called "gun show loophole" that maybe someone more knowledgeable on the subject could answer.

How is the 40% of gun sales from gun shows figure calculated?

Also, I may be wrong, but as I understand it, people who have a Federal Firearms License (FFL) do instant criminal checks when they sell firearms, even when they are selling at gun shows. Is that accounted for in the 40% sales figure?

How does anyone know whether or not a gun that was used in a crime was purchased at a gun show?

Is it correct to assume that all people who sell guns at gun shows don't care who they sell them to?

Just wondering. These are questions that just came to mind after reading through this thread.

Try looking things up for yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_shows_ ... ted_States