trump is serious!!!!!

[Burning Petard]

I love the headline on a Dana Milbank opinion piece in the Washington Post today. The headline is so good I did not bother to read the essay

"Why do smart people in the White House do stupid things? Because Trump tells them to."

snailgate.

[BoSoxGal]

Why on earth would any sane Israeli support a one state solution?! A quick look at Israeli v Palestinian birth rates would suggest that's a very dangerous prospect, no?

[Gob]

[Econoline]

• Why on earth would any sane Israeli support a one state solution?! A quick look at Israeli v Palestinian birth rates would suggest that's a very dangerous prospect, no?

Pulling that off would mean that the Likud and its even-further-right allies would have to succeed at running the kind of apartheid system that (inevitably) failed in South Africa. (Unless they have some sort of final solution in mind? )

ETA: (Fortunately—unbeknownst to Trump—Netanyahu does not represent the views of all Israelis and there are indeed a lot of sane Israelis who may, hopefully, eventually prevail. The Israeli national anthem is "Ha-Tikvah"—"The Hope"—and the last line of the last verse is “...לֵךְ עַמִּי לְשָׁלוֹם, וּרְפוּאָה קְרוֹבָה לָבוֹא” — “Go, my people, in peace, healing is imminent...”)

[Lord Jim]

Pulling that off would mean that the Likud and its even-further-right allies would have to succeed at running the kind of apartheid system that (inevitably) failed in South Africa. (Unless they have some sort of final solution in mind? )

No, that's not their idea of "The Final Solution To The Palestinian Question"...not mass murder...

Their "Final Solution" is to push the Palestinians into Jordan...(It was Menachem Begin who once said, "There's already a 'Palestinian State'...it's called Jordan"...)

Of course the problem we have with that, is that aside from Israel, The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, under the rule of the very urbane and westernized King Abdullah II bin Al-Hussein, is the strongest ally we have in the Mid East...

So a strategy that would destabilize and radicalize Jordan is probably not a really good idea...(not from a US point of view, or an Israeli point of view either...)

But the idea that the Likud Party is moving to a sort of "apartheid" solution, seems self evident...

Israeli "citizens" and Israeli "subjects"...

To a great extent, the Palestinians have no one but their own leaders to blame...

They could have cut a good deal 17 years ago, when Ehud Barak offered not only the West Bank territory based on UN resolution 242, (with a willingness to swap out land of equal value in Israel proper for any territory Israel considered essential for it security) but also East Jerusalem as a capitol for a Palestinian state (Something that no other Israeli government has offered before or since)

But Yasser Arafat couldn't bring himself to sign on to that "peace of the brave"...

Instead, dumbfounded by the fact that he'd just been handed everything he and his allies had been asking for, (he'd come to Camp David expecting no more than a photo-op) he upped the ante, asking for something new that he knew no Israeli government could possibly agree to...

A "right of return" for every Palestinian in the "diaspora" (and their descendants) to return to the territory of Israel proper...

He knew that would be a deal breaker...

Not just compensation...(Which I'm sure the out-going Clinton Administration and in-coming Bush Administration would have happily signed off on to the tune of multiple billion dollars...)

But a "right to return"...

Arafat later said that he knew that he was destroying any chance for an agreement, but that he couldn't sign a final peace accord with Israel because if he had he would have been assassinated...

And indeed he might have been...

Like Anwar Sadat and Yitzak Rabin before him...

It takes brave men to make a brave peace...

Arafat didn't have it in him...

But that's all water under the bridge...

The Palestinians have been misled, misused, and abused by their own leaders and the Arab World in general for decades...

We can take that as a given...

But that doesn't change the fundamental question that the Israelis face...

If there is no "two state solution" to be found, then Israel can be either Jewish or it can be a democracy, but it cannot be both...

Demographics make than impossible...

I suspect that given that choice, the majority of Israelis will choose Jewish over democracy...

If I were a Jew living in Israel, I'd probably feel that way as well...

[Scooter]

[Lord Jim]

I have no desire to come back next week for another heapin' helpin' of their hospitality...

[Big RR]

I agree Jim, but sometimes when all people have left is their hatred. they refuse to give it up and will fight if asked to do so. that's why I have been so pleasantly surprised about the situation in Northern Ireland, plenty of hatred and recriminations on both sides, but they ultimately accepted the tenuous peace that has outlasted what many of us (I now me for certain) would ever have expected. Ultimately I like to think that there is hope of a peaceful settlement--and maybe the parties will surprise us.

[Sue U]

The Palestinians have been misled, misused, and abused by their own leaders and the Arab World in general for decades...

We can take that as a given...

But that doesn't change the fundamental question that the Israelis face...

If there is no "two state solution" to be found, then Israel can be either Jewish or it can be a democracy, but it cannot be both...

Demographics make than impossible...

I suspect that given that choice, the majority of Israelis will choose Jewish over democracy...

If I were a Jew living in Israel, I'd probably feel that way as well...

While I agree with you about the general state of affairs, the controversy over the "Jewish Nation-State" bill in the Knesset was actually one of the significant factors in dissolving the last Israeli government and holding the 2015 election -- in which Netanyahu led an explicitly racist campaign and expressly abandoned the two-state solution that he had previously supported, all in a cynical and transparent bid to retain power. And the "Jewish Nation-State" bill still has not passed Knesset -- or even been given a reading, AFAIK. But the bill would be a problem regardless of whether the resolution of Palestinian self-determination comes in a one-, two- or three-state "solution."

The truth is that a pretty large majority of Israelis support a two-state solution, but the issues are more nuanced and complex than the picture painted by American media, involving many more indispensable players than just Israel and the PA. And when it comes to elections, most Israelis care a whole lot more about immediate economic issues than what seems to be an increasingly remote resolution to an increasingly intractable problem -- which is every bit as much the fault of Likud-led governments as it is the poltiically fractured Palestinians.

In any event, Netanyahu is a lying opportunist and a thoroughly unreliable partner in any deal; I don't blame the Palestinians at all for not believing anything he says. If I were them, I wouldn't negotiate with this government, either.

[Jarlaxle]

Pulling that off would mean that the Likud and its even-further-right allies would have to succeed at running the kind of apartheid system that (inevitably) failed in South Africa. (Unless they have some sort of final solution in mind? )

No, that's not their idea of "The Final Solution To The Palestinian Question"...not mass murder...

Their "Final Solution" is to push the Palestinians into Jordan...(It was Menachem Begin who once said, "There's already a 'Palestinian State'...it's called Jordan"...)

Of course the problem we have with that, is that aside from Israel, The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, under the rule of the very urbane and westernized King Abdullah II bin Al-Hussein, is the strongest ally we have in the Mid East...

So a strategy that would destabilize and radicalize Jordan is probably not a really good idea...(not from a US point of view, or an Israeli point of view either...)

But the idea that the Likud Party is moving to a sort of "apartheid" solution, seems self evident...

Israeli "citizens" and Israeli "subjects"...

To a great extent, the Palestinians have no one but their own leaders to blame...

They could have cut a good deal 17 years ago, when Ehud Barak offered not only the West Bank territory based on UN resolution 242, (with a willingness to swap out land of equal value in Israel proper for any territory Israel considered essential for it security) but also East Jerusalem as a capitol for a Palestinian state (Something that no other Israeli government has offered before or since)

But Yasser Arafat couldn't bring himself to sign on to that "peace of the brave"...

Instead, dumbfounded by the fact that he'd just been handed everything he and his allies had been asking for, (he'd come to Camp David expecting no more than a photo-op) he upped the ante, asking for something new that he knew no Israeli government could possibly agree to...

A "right of return" for every Palestinian in the "diaspora" (and their descendants) to return to the territory of Israel proper...

He knew that would be a deal breaker...

Not just compensation...(Which I'm sure the out-going Clinton Administration and in-coming Bush Administration would have happily signed off on to the tune of multiple billion dollars...)

But a "right to return"...

Arafat later said that he knew that he was destroying any chance for an agreement, but that he couldn't sign a final peace accord with Israel because if he had he would have been assassinated...

And indeed he might have been...

Like Anwar Sadat and Yitzak Rabin before him...

It takes brave men to make a brave peace...

Arafat didn't have it in him...

But that's all water under the bridge...

The Palestinians have been misled, misused, and abused by their own leaders and the Arab World in general for decades...

We can take that as a given...

But that doesn't change the fundamental question that the Israelis face...

If there is no "two state solution" to be found, then Israel can be either Jewish or it can be a democracy, but it cannot be both...

Demographics make than impossible...

I suspect that given that choice, the majority of Israelis will choose Jewish over democracy...

If I were a Jew living in Israel, I'd probably feel that way as well...

The Palestinians have no interest in a solution...unless that solution involves the detruction of Israel, and each and every Jew in the country either fled, or killed. Yes, it is thats simple.

[Sue U]

The Palestinians have no interest in a solution...unless that solution involves the detruction of Israel, and each and every Jew in the country either fled, or killed. Yes, it is thats simple.

You are either completely ignorant or a complete idiot, take your pick. But it's moronically simplistic opinions like that which cause real problems in international diplomacy.

[Jarlaxle]

Last time a 2 sate solution was offeed, they deliberately scuttled it.

[RayThom]

I refer to my highly educated, good friend, Josh, originally from Gladwyne Pa, who now lives in LA-LA Land, as my "Hebrew National Hot Dog."

He is so right-wing, conservative, gung-ho, that he consistently give Netanyahu carte blanc to do whatever he wants to do. And since the November election Lord Dampnut has become nothing short of an American idol. (Oddly, his entire tribe is actively involved in Democrat politics, successful beyond belief -- Trump-like wealth with tax returns to prove it.)

He dotes on and repeats any and all White House fake news, deflections, and misdirection, and outright lies, to the point of nausea thinking I'll eventually come around to thinking correctly. Quite honestly, if I didn't know Josh from my knowing his family so well since my late teens I would never put up with a friend like this. And yet I look forward to seeing him for his short Passover visit in April.

Unfortunately, with a significant portion of 'Josh'-minded voters out there the process of returning some normalcy to our political system will be daunting.

As I type this I am listening to Lord Dampnut's reputed "press conference" and we are obviously in for the long haul. Damn, this guy ain't hooked up right.

[wesw]

the "normalcy" was , and is, corrupt.

time to shake up the snowglobe.

no pain no gain

it is always darkest before the dawn

every cloud......

you gotta break some......

tough titty said the kitty when the milk ran dry.

[Sue U]

Last time a 2 sate solution was offeed, they deliberately scuttled it.

That is not even remotely close to accurate in any sense. Different versions of a "two-state solution" have been on the table continuously for 40 years, but the principle of two states does very little to resolve the details of territory, sovereignty, security, compensation, refugee status and regional interests. In the case of the Camp David (and subsequent Taba) series of negotiations, the failure to reach a final resolution had every bit as much to do with internal Israeli and American politics (particularly the change of both governments in January 2001) as it did Palestinian reluctance to forgo their numerous related claims. In particular, it was the election of the Sharon government that "scuttled" any hope of a concrete settlement, since Sharon declared that none of the ideas discussed and agreed to at Camp David and Taba by Barak, Clinton and Arafat would be honored by his new government.

Bush subsequently withdrew any active U.S. participation from negotiations and the process has gone essentially dormant ever since, particularly in the wake of the Second Intifada, 9/11 and the Hamas electoral victories in Gaza. Netanyahu's terrible relations with the Obama Administration ensured that nothing further could happen, and his Gaza wars cemented that. But some version of a "two-state solution" has always been the preferred approach to resolving the conflict by majorities of both Palestinians and Israelis.

[wesw]

what a masterful press conference, Donald, he had....

lol.

failing cnn is dead, and we killed it......

I think the free press will survive without it.....

WaPo, watch your back.........

[Scooter]

Just because I have some time to kill...

Care to quote anything from that press conference to demostrate what was "masterful" about it?

[wesw]

you should have watched, then you would know.

maybe CNN will tell you what to think....

low info Canadians yapping aren t really important........

I know you don t like to hear it.

Trudeau it is.......

[Big RR]

failing cnn is dead, and we killed it......

We? You were somehow part of it? Please elaborate on what part you played.


And FWIW, what you saw as a masterful press conference, I saw as a pep rally with assorted Trump toadies, at least on the American side. That guy is living down to every expectation I have ever had of him.

maybe CNN will tell you what to think....

Right, because it is so much worse that the biased CBN and Townhall toadies that Trump called on.

I'll take the word of CNN (or other respected mainstream journalistic outlets) any time over biased single issue administration apologists, but then that's just me.

[Scooter]

So once again, you've got nothing.

Like when you raved about his speech at the CIA and you couldn't articulate a single thing he had spoken about.

I see no need to give up precious minutes of my life just for the satisfaction of proving you wrong once again - Dog knows you will be around to continue providing sufficient fodder for that.

BigRR confirmed my assessment without having to sit through the drivel that gets you hard.