democratic election themes and daily talking points

[Guinevere]

She still has her Maine DL ..... so no problem registering to vote then?

But for the fact that she no longer lives in Maine....


And I'm not making excuses; however, (1) it is not as simple as blithely saying "there are services/resources to do that for your senior;" and (2) having to go through a process to get this ID is a barrier, it makes it more difficult, and thus discourages people who might otherwise vote, and who have every right TO vote.

Let me give a real-life example:

Local service takes seniors to Doctor appts. Mom has an appointment that we need transport for. Transport (free) is arranged by daughter. Date is put on Mom's calendar and daughter's calendar. On a call the night before, daughter reminds Mom of appointment and pick-up time. At pick-up time Mom is doing something else in the small apartment, doesn't hear the phone, doesn't answer the phone, who the hell knows. Transport service calls the building management, still no Mom. Transport service calls daughter - sorry, we couldn't wait any longer, had to leave. Daughter finally tracks down Mom -- "Sorry I forgot/didn't hear the phone/it was hot/maybe I was napping/I don't know." Daughter loses it.

It's just not easy. It should be, maybe it is in perfect families and on TV, but the reality is that it isn't.

And yes, I will take a day when I can be there during business hours and I will take her to register to vote and get whatever kind of ID she should have (which will then re-trigger the fight over why I've taken her keys away), but I'll do it anyway because it IS important. It's just not the first priority when you're dealing with hospitals/rehabs/PT/a million follow-up doctor appointments over an hour away/packing up a house 4 hours away/selling a house 4 hours away/moving into a new apt 4 hours the other direction away/unpacking/getting settled/getting into a new routine/finding regular aides/etc/etc/etc. But for her kick-ass, involved daughters, my mom would be dead/in a nursing home/sitting in a corner in some facility rotting. You have no idea how much we do, and how much we manage. She would/could NEVER do this for herself any more. And that's yet another loss in this last two years of losses piled on losses piled on losses we all have to manage.

[Long Run]

So we have a sensible rule that makes a voter prove they are a resident by showing an easily obtained card, but let's focus on the very small percentage (maybe 1%) who might have some minor inconvenience in obtaining an ID. Never mind that they should have and will need the same ID for many other daily activities (e.g., buying wine or cashing a check or getting on a plane or applying for Social Security or any number of things). Yes, let's eliminate the sensible rule that 99% of us have no problem complying with, instead of figuring out the easy ways we can get the 1% the ID they need for voting and all the other reasons they will need an ID.

[Guinevere]

First of all, "easily" is entirely subjective. Second, how can you say its 1%, based on what facts? Third, voting is a FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT, as has been pointed out previously. We have an obligation to 100 percent of our citizens to make it as simple and as accessible as possible.

ETA: "Minor inconvenience" my ass. Significant barrier.

[Big RR]

oldr--

If some claim it's too much trouble to get id, it would probably be too much trouble to vote for them anyway.

That's the attitude I think is wrong; voting should not be a problem--it should be as easy as it can be to make sure the greatest number of those who can and want to will vote. Putting hurdles in the way help no one.

Again, we should encourage people to vote and make it as easy as possible to do so in order to get the vote to reflect the will of the electorate. Making it harder to register for some groups (such as those who do not drive, or live away from a major town, or have little to no public transport) assure that some of them will not vote and the election will not get the benefit of the full participation of those groups.

Guin--you've hit the nail on the head; even with good services, this is an imposition that results in some not voting. When services are not quite so prevalent, it becomes even more of an impediment.

LR--if it was a law that affected one's right to cash a check or buy alcohol (although I haven't been carded in decades), I'd agree. But this is something that affects someone's right to vote and we should scrutinize it better; disenfranchising the 1% of the population you say is inconvenienced is not the way to go. If we can make getting the ID easy for all, we might not have a problem; but some choose to pretend there is no problem in getting it now, and others would prefer those who won't make the effort should forfeit their right to vote. And I don't buy that.

Guin--you beat me to it. When the federal law to require background checks to buy firearms was discussed, 2nd amendment advocates railed at the inconvenience without having an immediate check available; but when its voting some of those same folks (not necessarily here, but in the country) don't care.

[Guinevere]

When Mom was in far more control of her own life than she is now, she always voted. In fact, she even became an activist, in her 70s. That, I fear, is why some don't care if she can vote now, when getting through the hoops is much more difficult for her.

[Long Run]

How is someone disenfranchised if they have to get a simple ID card? It is easier to get the card than to figure out how to vote (either to get to the polling place or to go to obtain an absentee ballot). I don't get it.

Second, how can you say its 1%, based on what facts?

Of all the people I know, and know of (including elderly, in senior homes and on their own in rural areas, people with limited English skills, etc.), and have some form of contact with, your mom is the first actual example I have heard of someone for whom it might be a bit inconvenient to obtain an ID card. So, out of literally thousands of people I know/know of, your mom is the only one for whom it will be somewhat difficult to comply with getting an ID. (And, of course, she needs a current ID card anyway for many other things, to replace her old Maine ID, even if Maine used to be part of Massachusetts, ). And, at a minimum, she has you to assist her.

[Big RR]

LR--

How is someone disenfranchised if they have to get a simple ID card? It is easier to get the card than to figure out how to vote (either to get to the polling place or to go to obtain an absentee ballot). I don't get it.

Come on, polling places are local; there are usually several or more in every town and they are as often as not within walking distance (or a short ride) for most residents in a precinct. Transportation is usually available by local senior buses, paratransit, and through the political parties and sometimes the LWV. Absentee ballots can usually be applied for by mail.

As for going to a motor vehicle office, I have yet to see a state which has one in every town; often they are many miles apart and it would not be uncommon for a person to travel and hour or more to one. Public transportation has never been a priority in the US, and so there are areas where it might be quite difficult for someone to get to the Motor Vehicle office. Add to this the fact that the offices are understaffed to handle even drivers licenses, and you are also looking at a several hour wait, often with no seating. The last time I renewed my license I went on weekday morning and was there for three hours--no problems, just the volume of people. Add the identification of non-driving voters and what do you bet that wait time will significantly increase?

So how many will just say, to hell with it?

That seems like disenfranchisement to me, especially because I don't see it necessary or warranted by the current situation.

[TPFKA@W]

She still has her Maine DL ..... so no problem registering to vote then?

But for the fact that she no longer lives in Maine....


And I'm not making excuses; however, (1) it is not as simple as blithely saying "there are services/resources to do that for your senior;" and (2) having to go through a process to get this ID is a barrier, it makes it more difficult, and thus discourages people who might otherwise vote, and who have every right TO vote.

Let me give a real-life example:

Local service takes seniors to Doctor appts. Mom has an appointment that we need transport for. Transport (free) is arranged by daughter. Date is put on Mom's calendar and daughter's calendar. On a call the night before, daughter reminds Mom of appointment and pick-up time. At pick-up time Mom is doing something else in the small apartment, doesn't hear the phone, doesn't answer the phone, who the hell knows. Transport service calls the building management, still no Mom. Transport service calls daughter - sorry, we couldn't wait any longer, had to leave. Daughter finally tracks down Mom -- "Sorry I forgot/didn't hear the phone/it was hot/maybe I was napping/I don't know." Daughter loses it.

It's just not easy. It should be, maybe it is in perfect families and on TV, but the reality is that it isn't.

And yes, I will take a day when I can be there during business hours and I will take her to register to vote and get whatever kind of ID she should have (which will then re-trigger the fight over why I've taken her keys away), but I'll do it anyway because it IS important. It's just not the first priority when you're dealing with hospitals/rehabs/PT/a million follow-up doctor appointments over an hour away/packing up a house 4 hours away/selling a house 4 hours away/moving into a new apt 4 hours the other direction away/unpacking/getting settled/getting into a new routine/finding regular aides/etc/etc/etc. But for her kick-ass, involved daughters, my mom would be dead/in a nursing home/sitting in a corner in some facility rotting. You have no idea how much we do, and how much we manage. She would/could NEVER do this for herself any more. And that's yet another loss in this last two years of losses piled on losses piled on losses we all have to manage.

Guin, you have all my admiration and respect for being a wonderful daughter who is making such a great effort to care for Mamma. I do understand what it is like and I walked in your shoes at the turn of the century. A goat rodeo would be simpler to manage than an aging parent's schedule on top of working full time. Never the less I totally call foul on anyone who argues on your side of this issue of showing ID for voter registration. I don't see it now but I think you said people get discouraged by the effort or similar wording. If it wasn't you I apologize in advance but seriously, if someone is too easily discouraged, translation can't be arsed, too lazy, etc. I have no sympathy. We have multiple resources including churches with idle ladies who are just dying to help out and my guess is we can see that every senior gets an ID and gets out to vote.

[TPFKA@W]

[quote="Long Run"]How is someone disenfranchised if they have to get a simple ID card? It is easier to get the card than to figure out how to vote (either to get to the polling place or to go to obtain an absentee ballot). I don't get it.




This. It is utter bullocks.

[Big RR]

If it wasn't you I apologize in advance but seriously, if someone is too easily discouraged, translation can't be arsed, too lazy, etc. I have no sympathy.

Nah, that was probably me; and I don't necessarily have any sympathy for them, I just don't think they should be denied the right to vote because of those reasons. As Guin said, voting is a fundamental right, and I maintain impediments should not unnecessarily be placed in the way of anyone's right to vote whether they're discouraged, lazy, or just can't be bothered to jump through the hoops some would like them to jump through.

[TPFKA@W]

If it wasn't you I apologize in advance but seriously, if someone is too easily discouraged, translation can't be arsed, too lazy, etc. I have no sympathy.

Nah, that was probably me; and I don't necessarily have any sympathy for them, I just don't think they should be denied the right to vote because of those reasons. As Guin said, voting is a fundamental right, and I maintain impediments should not unnecessarily be placed in the way of anyone's right to vote whether they're discouraged, lazy, or just can't be bothered to jump through the hoops some would like them to jump through.

You are killing me here big RR. You (or whatever lazy arse you have in mind) being too lazy to jump through the necessary hoops does not equal, in any way shape or form obstacles placed in the way of voting. It just isn't that hard.

[Guinevere]

Yes, it IS that hard, when you don't have resources or 100% of your capacity (mental/physical/emotional or otherwise).

Oh yeah, Mom was also diagnosed by the geriatric assessment center at Yale with Executive Function disorder, which is common in older adults. It's NOT LAZYNESS.

ETA: I am bowing out of this thread. It's too personal for me, and I may start cursing and calling people names, which I don't want to do. I've made my points. I heartily disagree with many of the ones made here.

I'll say this one more time --- VOTING IS A FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT and there should be NO BARRIERS.

Au revoir.

[Big RR]

Hard or not (and we can agree to disagree on that), it's just not warranted IMHO. Again, I'd be happy to see the evidence of voter fraud the proponents of these laws insist is going on, but I haven't seen any.

[TPFKA@W]

Yes, it IS that hard, when you don't have resources or 100% of your capacity (mental/physical/emotional or otherwise).

Oh yeah, Mom was also diagnosed by the geriatric assessment center at Yale with Executive Function disorder, which is common in older adults. It's NOT LAZYNESS.

For the love of God I was not saying your mother is lazy. Or you. Christ on a crutch.

[rubato]

Absent any evidence to date that there has been any significant voter fraud the only motive to raise barriers to voting is to disenfranchise those for whom those barriers are highest.


Republicans hate democracy and are doing everything they can to destroy it.


yrs,
rubato

[Beer Sponge]

I'll say this one more time --- VOTING IS A FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT and there should be NO BARRIERS.

NAILED IT!!! With barriers to voting, your democracy is broken.

[Long Run]

So why have any barriers? A person has to register to be able to vote. That is a barrier. The answer, of course, is that the integrity of the voting process has to be protected with reasonable measures. Simple proof of residence is the minimal reasonable step to protecting the integrity of the voting process. Again, nearly all of the people have absolutely no problem satisfying this requirement. There are very few situations, effecting very few people, where this easy requirement is not so easy; and that can be readily addressed as described above. Everything else is mystifying hyperbole.

[Long Run]

Guin--you beat me to it. When the federal law to require background checks to buy firearms was discussed, 2nd amendment advocates railed at the inconvenience without having an immediate check available; but when its voting some of those same folks (not necessarily here, but in the country) don't care.

Hmm, this actually cuts the other way. You want reasonable ID requirements imposed on those who want to exercise their constitutional right to buy a gun (me too), but you don't want a much easier reasonable requirement for those who want to exercise their constitutional right to vote. Who is being inconsistent?

[wesw]

boy, long run consistently makes good arguments and he consistently takes positions that I agree with completely.

I usually find RR to be the most reasonable person on this board. this thread is an exception.....

[Guinevere]

Long Run may be consistent and BigRR reasonable, but I'm still your favorite.

@W - I feel about this like you feel about the 2nd amendment. So let's just agree on Trump and any woman crazy and/or sad enough to support him.