Unions and Government

[Sean]

Having great experience/knowledge in one's field does not a teacher make. Einstein may have known everything there is to know about calculus but it does not automatically follow that he could impart that knowledge to students effectively. What if he encountered different types of learner? A theorist? A pragmatist? A reflector? An activist? Would he know how to adjust his methods and styles to cope?

That is but one example of the type of tools that teaching qualifications give. No amount of life experience or subject knowledge can compensate.

As an engineer, testing is something we do everyday, it's just a slightly different scenario.

It's a completely different scenario mate. I imagine that your type of testing is a pass/fail/troubleshoot kind of testing. Black and white. When testing people, specifically their knowledge on a given subject, there are many shades of grey. There is a human element which you do have have when testing machines.

[Gob]

What he said.

[loCAtek]

The 'Science of Learning': maybe first explored in the fifties in;

The Voyage of the Space Beagle

AKA Nexialism;

Nexialism is thinking and acting holistically and practically; that is, using both general semantics and logical structures to solve problems and gain understanding. According to Van Vogt: "Nexialism is the science of joining in an orderly fashion the knowledge of one field of learning with that of other fields. It provides techniques for speeding up the processes of absorbing knowledge and of using effectively what has been learned." In our interpretation at the Nexial Institute, this goes beyond traditional 20th Century science, to integrate science and other modes of understanding. It is surprising that such a simple concept is so little practised today, nor are there widely recognized methods for its development. The Nexial Institute begins a collaborative investigation into integral views of nature, and practices of integrated understanding. Perhaps it will someday realize Van Vogt's vision of a Foundation for the education of a new breed of scientists -- the first true "nexialists."

Nexialism Institute

...a big influence on Gene Roddenberry and Star Trek; the Enterprise and the Space Beagle both had 'five year voyage' mission statements, amongst other things.

[Liberty1]

A teaching degree and certification does not a teacher make. And if you think it does you know nothing about the process. They don't teach you how to teach like I said, it ain't about the students.

[Gob]

A teaching degree and certification does not a teacher make. And if you think it does you know nothing about the process. They don't teach you how to teach like I said, it ain't about the students.

Meaningless.

No one has claimed a teaching certificate "makes" a teacher.

[Liberty1]

True I suppose, but Sean made me think that's where he was coming from.

[Sean]

A teaching degree and certification does not a teacher make. And if you think it does you know nothing about the process.

Actually, I know plenty about the process Lib, being both qualified and experienced as a teacher, moderator, invigilator and marker.

They don't teach you how to teach like I said, it ain't about the students.

So you have been trained as a teacher? Surely you must have to have such an insight into the process.
Maybe it's like that in the US but certainly not in the UK where I trained...

My point is that both knowledge/experience and training are necessary to make a good teacher.

[loCAtek]

Language skills? Like the proper conjugation of 'cunt'?


I should tell your cert board, how well you do this, 'eh?

[quaddriver]

A teaching degree and certification does not a teacher make. And if you think it does you know nothing about the process. They don't teach you how to teach like I said, it ain't about the students.

Then what is it about? Teachers do 1 day spots up to one week spots in the jr and sr years then in PA do a 1 semester student teach, and the first year out is a paid student teach...

[Sean]

Then what is it about?

That's a very good question Quad.

I'd be interested in hearing your answer Lib...

[rubato]

And a medical degree does not a good doctor make. Both are means of assuring that someone has met certain minimum conditions. People who have failed to acquire the appropriate credentialing have a much lower chance of being competent. If you are hiring many teachers you need a sorting process which is efficient and adequate. If you are looking for a doctor you can efficiently avoid many of the worst choices by seeing someone who is licensed.


yrs,
rubato

[rubato]

"... What if he encountered different types of learner? A theorist? A pragmatist? A reflector? An activist? Would he know how to adjust his methods and styles to cope?
... "

Part of being a successful student is adapting yourself to different teaching styles. Theorists can learn pragmatism, reflectors can learn activism & in fact it is an important part of the educational process that they do so.



yrs,
rubato

[dgs49]

All bullshit aside, the most important qualification for a teacher is intimate and thorough knowledge of the subject matter. This is particularly true in quantitative areas of study. High School math and science teachers are, in general, only marginally knowledgeable in their subject areas. They almost never have a degee in chemistry or "math, but rather they have a degree in "education," with a minor in chemistry or math. Most states only require 5 or 6 college-level courses in math or science to get permanent certification in that subject.

It is very true, on the other hand, that a technical genius may not be good at teaching the subject matter, just as great baseball hitters are seldom good batting coaches; it is difficult to teach what comes to you naturally.

But one would hope that the screening process for hiring, say, engineers to teach high school science, would include an assessment of communication skills and teaching aptitude. If I had to choose a teacher for my son between a person with a masters in Chemistry and a person with a B.A. in Education and 12 credits of Chemistry, I know which one I'd go for.

[dales]

One must have a HEART for teaching.

[Scooter]

But that which is being taught in high school is at such an basic level that acquiring "intimate and thorough knowledge of the subject matter" has already been achieved by someone with 5 or 6 college courses. Who cares about the additional level of knowledge someone with a masters in the subject possesses, he/she will never have the opportunity to impart any of that knowledge to a high school class anyway.

And the worst math teacher I had in high school had a masters in math. Why? Because he attempted to teach using advanced forms of notation which, while they expressed the concepts elegantly, were beyond the reach of most of the students in his class (and lest you think that is sour grapes talking, I got an A in his class, as I did in every math class I ever took in high school and university).

[Guinevere]

The tension between practical experience and academic experience is coming more and more to the forefront in many different disciplines. Watching the battle play out is very interesting, but after K-12, a B.S., coursework for a Masters in Public Administration, and a J.D. (which is probably about 21 years of formal education), and 20 years of professional experience, I learn more and more towards valuing practical experience over academic. Nothing teaches you like doing, and all the theory in the world isn't going to substitute for practical application. Yes, you need the basic theory but then you also need to understand the application to have any effect in the real world.

[quaddriver]

But that which is being taught in high school is at such an basic level that acquiring "intimate and thorough knowledge of the subject matter" has already been achieved by someone with 5 or 6 college courses. Who cares about the additional level of knowledge someone with a masters in the subject possesses, he/she will never have the opportunity to impart any of that knowledge to a high school class anyway.

And the worst math teacher I had in high school had a masters in math. Why? Because he attempted to teach using advanced forms of notation which, while they expressed the concepts elegantly, were beyond the reach of most of the students in his class (and lest you think that is sour grapes talking, I got an A in his class, as I did in every math class I ever took in high school and university).

try telling that to a calc student.

or alternatively, show us how to calculate RMS power for an Amp without googling. and convince me you understand it. (its only fair, when I had to learn it 30 years ago, the internet and google did not exist)

5-6 100-200 level courses are not going to verse someone in college prep math (calc, trig, stats) or science (physics, chem) at the HS level.

[Liberty1]

So you have been trained as a teacher? Surely you must have to have such an insight into the process.

No I'm not. But as I jokingly say about my family, half are teachers, half are welders and three teach welding (me and my Dad were the oddball engineers) . My wife was a teacher, and I knew her through her entire (minus 6 months) time going through univesity, student teaching and teaching career. My mom was a teacher, 3 uncles were teachers/professors, 1 aunt was a teacher and 7 cousins are/were teachers.

My point is that both knowledge/experience and training are necessary to make a good teacher

Agreed, but I would add desire and talent to that list.

Then what is it about?

It's about showing that you have been an OK student, that you can pass the classes required to get certification.

[dgs49]

Worst Math Teacher Anecdote (sorry):

When I applied for admission to Pitt's MBA program they said that I would have to take a "college level" calculus course to get in. This was some 20 years after I had barely passed HS math by the skin of my teeth, so I did not relish the thought.

But they did offer an evening Calc course that was geared to business applications, so I signed up. At the time Pitt was getting a bit of heat because all of their math teachers were Chinese expats who were - to be kind - rather difficult to understand.

My instructor turned out to be Exhibit A: a Chinese guy who was absolutely unintelligible. Ironically, he had written the text we were using (printed in binder form by the University Press) and it was an excellent math text. He wrote beautifully in English.

Well, I basically was able to teach all of it to myself with the text, and passed all the tests but one (you could sit for the exams on your own schedule, just having to complete all of them by the end of the term). I just couldn't figure out "implicit differentiation." I studied and fretted for weeks but just couldn't get it. Finally, I called whoever it was to get a tutor, hoping that a grad student might be able to explain it to me well enough to just get through that one test.

The grad student-tutor was a Chinese guy, whose English was only a little bit better than the professor's. We struggled to communicate with one another for about an hour, then he said one simple thing that made the light bulb go off in my head. I stopped him in the middle of a sentence, ran out of the office and down to the testing center. I checked out the test and took it quickly while the understanding was still fresh in my mind - soon to depart forever.

Passed the test and never looked back.

Never used a bit of calculus in the MBA program - not even in Statistics.

[Liberty1]

I struggled in calculus initially. In calc 1, I don't even remember the prof, an american I believe, made a C. In calc II, another mediocure prof, made a B, In calc III, the prof was an older guy, seemed middle eastern and had a french accent, but he was excellent, teaching 3 demensional calculus no less, I made an A.


I believe college, especially engineering school, is more about learning how to teach yourself, than learning from a prof, but there were a few standouts, he was one.