Rick Perry's latest: sinners shouldn't be in the military

[Crackpot]

Jesus followed and claimed to be the fulfillment of the tradition of Judaism right? Therefore he was an adherent to the One God philosophy. It is unreasonable to claim that Jesus somehow neglected to mention that he didn't adhere to the central tenet of the religion he was claiming to fulfill.

You do realize that there are Christian sects (such as Oneness Pentecostals) who believe any expression of trinitarianism to be polytheistic, and therefore non-Christian. Why should your judgment hold any more value than theirs?

Because they are quibbling on a belief of what constitutes monotheism. It is a difference of opinion on the constitution of God not the addition of separate entities other than the one.

[Crackpot]

So should you

Well CP, they identify as Christians and follow the teachings of Jesus. That makes them Christian whether you like it or not.

One can claim whatever they damn well please it doesn't make it so. If they follow the teachings of Jesus why would they ignore the central tenet of the religion whos prophecies he was claiming to fulfill?

Would it be right for me to claim I'm a follower of islam except for that part about Mohammad being a Prophet? I mean he still said some neat things but I don't think he was a prophet.

[Crackpot]

there are a total of 3 "christian" religions that routinely get labeled non-christianby the broad christian community. Two of them do so for failing the central tenet of Monotheism. (LDS and witnesses) the third for a belief system completely foreign to Christianity. (The Church of Christ, Scientist) THese are done so because they violate foundational beliefs of Christianity. it is as simple as that.

Most people will cede that the Morons of Westboro Baptist aren't Christian yet to disprove them you have to debate finer points of faith instead of pointing out the lack of a basic foundational pillar.

[Sue U]

Just our of curiosity, do you consider Unitarian Universalists to be Christians?

[Crackpot]

Personally or in the view of Christians as a whole? Actually I don't think there is much difference.

I dont see UU's as having any doctrine at all really so there's nothing "preventing" them from being "christian" but they're also missing anything to directly define them as "christian" so it goes on a case by case basis.

Personally, trouble with theology aside I don't see anything preventing LDS or JWs from being saved on an individual basis either. CCS on on the other hand is so twisted in it's theology that it provides no path to salvation as I know it.

[dgs49]

Jesus Christ, here we go again.

If we define "Christian" to mean, "anything that any asshole wants to call 'Christian,'" then I guess LDS is a "Christian" religion.

But if the word means anything at all, then they are not.

"Christianity" was defined at the Council of Nicea in the fourth century. Without going into every detail, that council resolved all of the major heresies that had been floating around for the first 300 years after the death of Christ. It defined, among other things, the trinity, and the definity and role of Jesus Christ.

Every Christian religion follows the lead of the Council of Nicea, from the most fundamental fundamentalist to the most liberal Episcopalian - they ALL believe in the core theological points of the Council of Nicea. This is not up for popular vote, or the opinion of anyone who wants to refer to him or herself as a "Christian." It is NOT defined by whether the formal title of the religion includes the name, "Jesus Christ" (i.e., "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints").

Words mean things.

Mormon theology is FUNDAMENTALLY different from that of Christianity. Mormons do not believe in ONE GOD, for Christ's sake! They believe that if people are good, and they are baptized, they can BECOME GODS in the next life. They can - just for fun - create their own little universes each with its own little earth and so on. This is what they refer to as being "exalted." It is not to be confused with being "saved" or being a "saint." It is TOTALLY DIFFERENT. They believe that sanctified marriage entends into the afterlife. This directly contradicts the words of Christ, which they attribute to EVERYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD mis-interpreting the Bible. They believe that Christ came to the New World for a visit after the resurrection. We Christians have a word for this: "Baloney."

There is a whole cornucopia of other Mormon Baloney that Christians do not share, and generally consider nonsense. They wear magic undergarments, they do not believe in drinking alcohol or caffeine, they believe that Adam, Michael the Archangel and Jesus Christ are the same person. And so on.

Unitarians, by definition, do not believe in the Trinity, and therefore are not "Christian."

None of this is to say that people who are not Christians cannot be good people, or good citizens, or should be disqualified from being President, generally, provided that their faith would not in some way be an impediment to executing the office according to the Constitution. As far as I know - and I haven't heard any arguments to the contrary - there is nothing in the Mormon faith that would prevent a person from being a good and Constitutional president.

Now if his father was not an American citizen,...

[Scooter]

double post

[Scooter]

I always thought Christianity was defined by God, but hey, I guess you learn something new every day.

If the Council of Nicea had succeeded in defining Christianity, there wouldn't have been any necessity for any of the remaining ecumenical councils which took place over the next 1650 years, nor would any of the subsequent councils have come up with their own creeds. The Council of Nicea did not even attempt to define the nature of the Trinity, but only of the relationship of Jesus to God the Father. The Trinity was the subject of later councils, and later creeds.

Mormons worship one God and only one God - that makes them every bit as monotheist as other Christians, as well as Jews and Muslims. If the mere belief in the existence of other gods (as opposed to the worship of them) is enough to make one polytheist, then Jews, Christians, and Muslims are also polytheist, since the bible makes explicit reference in several places to the existence of other gods (the gods of the Egyptians, Baal, etc.)

[Crackpot]

I always thought Christianity was defined by God, but hey, I guess you learn something new every day.

If the Council of Nicea had succeeded in defining Christianity, there wouldn't have been any necessity for any of the remaining ecumenical councils which took place over the next 1650 years, nor would any of the subsequent councils have come up with their own creeds. The Council of Nicea did not even attempt to define the nature of the Trinity, but only of the relationship of Jesus to God the Father. The Trinity was the subject of later councils, and later creeds.

Mormons worship one God and only one God - that makes them every bit as monotheist as other Christians, as well as Jews and Muslims. If the mere belief in the existence of other gods (as opposed to the worship of them) is enough to make one polytheist, then Jews, Christians, and Muslims are also polytheist, since the bible makes explicit reference in several places to the existence of other gods (the gods of the Egyptians, Baal, etc.)

Acknowledging people worship other/false gods does no mean they believe they are gods or even exist at all.

[Crackpot]

Why is it so hard to admit there is sound reasoning behind the claim that Mormons are Christian?

[Lord Jim]

Mormons worship one God and only one God - that makes them every bit as monotheist as other Christians, as well as Jews and Muslims

I saw a minister on television a while back who advanced this description:

He said described Mormonism as "The 4th Abrahamic religion" along with Judaism, Christianity, and the Muslim faith....

ie, all four trace their roots to The God of Abraham, and thus all four worship the same God, but with different sets of beliefs...Esentially he was making analogy between the Muslims and the Mormons, with Joseph Smith playing the role of Mohamed in the Mormon faith....

That seemed like a logical construct to me, until you consider that Mormon faith has beliefs about Jesus Christ that are much more like mainstream Christianity's than those of the Muslim religion....

Mormons believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ as God Made man, uniquely The Savior, and in The Resurrection:

the Atonement of the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh is the crucial foundation upon which all Christian doctrine rests and the greatest expression of divine love this world has ever been given.

http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng ... sus-christ

They DO NOT consider Joesph Smith to in anyway shape or form to be the equal of Jesus; they consider him to be a divinely inspired prophet, like Moses, but not divine himself.

(This is hugely different from the Muslim view of Christ which has him as a prophet or messenger, divinely inspired, but no greater than Moses or Mohamed)

So for me, whether or not to consider Mormonism a Christian faith is a tough call....

Because on the one had, they accept the two fundamental, minimal principles that one must accept to call oneself a Christian; ie the uniqueness of Christ as God Made Man and the truth of The Resurrection, (yeah I know; there are some folks 'round these parts who would like to dilute the meaning of Christianity down to the belief that "Jesus was a really cool dude")

But then on the other, they have grafted on to the acceptance of these fundamental beliefs a whole set of doctrines that exist outside of even the broadest array of traditional Christian doctrines.

[Sean]

Well if we're quoting Jim I'd like to quote Big RR who put it much better than I ever could...

Who has the authority to define who is a "christian" and who is not? Certainly no person, and Jesus never said (at least as recorded in the gospels) that one must fill certain criteria in order to be a follower of him. Indeed, most of the talk of belief in the death/resurrection comes from later books in the bible, not the recorded sayings of jesus. True Jesus talks about belief in him(self), but is this a belief in his teachings and philosophy, or in the traditional christian belief of redemption through the death/resurrection? It's hard to say, isn't it?

Clearly there are many different views; Paul places the death resurrection at the center of the then-burgeoning christian faith, but later church leaders and authorities instituted many other articles de fe, from belief in the "one true" church and its apostolic authority, to surrender of any right to dissent, etc. Roman catholics would, until recently, say protestants are not "christian" (and many biblical literalist protestants would say the same of catholics), but that is immaterial. People can call themselves what they choose, but in the end the only thing that matters is a man's (or woman's) oneness with his/her god, something beyond the control of any other. It's a bit silly to claim anything different, especially since jesus was a practicing jew throughout his life and never sought to sever that. We have brains to allow u to decide for ourselves what we believe; no one owns christianity.

[Crackpot]

RR doesn't know his Bible. Check out all the times Jesus Says "it is written" he is clearly making an argument from an authority outside of himself. THerefore there is more to what Jesus was teaching than what his words alone. Not to mention Jesus also said that he was sent to the Jews that being the case his message was tailored directly to them leaving much able to be left unsaid. THerefore it is not unreasonable that something that would be anathema to that tradition (more than one god) to that tradition would be anathema to Jesus.

[dgs49]

It is...difficult...to argue with people who make shit up. To wit,

"Roman catholics would, until recently, say protestants are not "christian."" Total, made-up nonsense. The RC Church taught until about 50 years ago that one could not get into heaven unless one were baptized, but protestant baptism was never an issue - it was accepted by the Church. Thus, the Church has never officially denied the Christianity of mainstream protestantism. The Church has modified its teaching about baptism being required for salvation, but continues to teach that a belief in God is necessary (plus other elements).

"Mormons worship one God and only one God." This is, to put it mildly, incorrect. Brigham Young taught in very clear and unambiguous terms that "God" was once a physical man who walked and talked like us, died, and was exalted. He taught that Mormons could accomplish the same thing. How could anyone who knows anything about LDS possibly claim that it is monotheistic? Mormons also believe that it is possible to "baptize" one's dead ancestors so that they can also be exalted. This is why - Jesus, how could anyone not know this? - they have the best geneological resources in the world: so they can identify and have their ancestors baptized.

"If the mere belief in the existence of other gods (as opposed to the worship of them) is enough to make one polytheist, then Jews, Christians, and Muslims are also polytheist, since the bible makes explicit reference in several places to the existence of other gods (the gods of the Egyptians, Baal, etc.)." Total rubbish. The Bible acknowledges that other peoples' believed in their own pagan "gods," but in no way, shape or form could it be construed to acknowledge the factual existence of gods other than Yahweh. To even hint that the Torah accepts the existence of other gods is preposterous.

As I said, the Council of Nicea defined basic Christianity, and EVERY Catholic and Protestant church accepts its basic theological conclusions. Additional Church councils continue to this very day, to define, for a given sect or sects some fine points of belief (e.g., regarding Mary, purgatory), but the basic theology of Nicea has not changed.

No one can be prevented from calling himself, or his religion, "Christian." It is clear that the Mormon church has taken great pains over the past 40 years to dissociate itself from past practices and beliefs in order to become more mainstream, and to make themselves more palatable to Christian converts. They actually increased the font size of "Jesus Christ" in the official church logo, as part of this campaign. It is visibly larger than the other words in print.

Indeed, it is easy to understand the LDS dilemma: it is a successful, modern institution that was founded by a kook, serial adulterer, and a transparent fraud, Joseph Smith. The claims of the Book of Mormon and of Joseph Smith are, with current scientific tools, provably false. Brigham Young Univeristy has spent decades and millions of dollars doing archaelogical research in central and South America, trying to find proof of the existence of the semitic tribes that Smith claimed settled there (hundreds of thousands of people, in all). DNA testing has totally debunked any conceivable claims of Semitic origins of the Native Americans, which was a core Smith teaching.

If words mean anything at all, the LDS church is NOT a Christian religion, even though its adherents would very much like to be considered as such. Among people who take the Bible seriously - mainstream Protestant religions, the Fundies, and the RC Church, there is no debate about whether LDS is a Christian church. It is not.

If words mean nothing, and if the opinion of those who are in the best position to know should be totally discounted, then by all means carry on with this debate.

[Scooter]

Speaking of posting bullshit, does anyone see anything in there that disproves the assertion that Mormons WORSHIP one, and only one, God, and are, consequently, monotheistic?




Bueller?




Bueller?




Anyone?

[Crackpot]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotheism

Monotheism (from Greek μόνος, monos, "single", and θεός, theos, "god") is the belief in the existence of one and only one god.[1] Monotheism is characteristic of the Baha'i Faith, Christianity, Druzism, Hinduism,[2] Islam, Judaism, Samaritanism, Sikhism and Zoroastrianism.

QED

I expect better from you Scooter

[BoSoxGal]

I have a feeling that if Jesus Christ had to issue an opinion, he wouldn't consider any of the "Christian" sects to be Christian.

[Crackpot]

He wouldn't be pleased with the sectarianism to be sure. But I doubt there aren't at least a few that he wouldn't accept as his own. (is that a proper amount of negatives?)

[rubato]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotheism

Monotheism (from Greek μόνος, monos, "single", and θεός, theos, "god") is the belief in the existence of one and only one god.[1] Monotheism is characteristic of the Baha'i Faith, Christianity, Druzism, Hinduism,[2] Islam, Judaism, Samaritanism, Sikhism and Zoroastrianism.

QED

I expect better from you Scooter

Your post does not address the question of whether Mormons are monothiestic or not.



yrs,
rubato

[Crackpot]

And I thought you were literate.