Let The Obese And The Smokers Die?

[Econoline]

Well...maybe everywhere except Texas?

[Andrew D]

I've been to California and have seen HOV lanes work ....

Where in California was that?

I live in California, and what I have seen is that HOV lanes result in huge increases in the emission of bad things (greenhouse gases, etc.). The overwhelming bulk of freeway traffic is compressed into fewer lanes, so vehicles travel even more slowly, so they emit more bad things per mile. Only a minuscule fraction of freeway traffic moves in the HOV lanes.

And much of that traffic is illegally moving in the HOV lanes. Many of the vehicles traveling in them are occupied by only one person. My vehicle is often one of them. The odds of my being cited are whatever once in decades of driving in them works out to.

According to California's Department of Transportation, HOV lanes are "a traffic management strategy to promote and encourage ridesharing". At least in North California, it hasn't worked worth shit.

In fact, it has done exactly the opposite of its ultimate goal: reducing harmful emissions. People who sit in non-HOV lanes are spewing more crap into the atmosphere than they would if the HOV lanes did not exist.

So every time I illegally drive in an HOV lane, I am actually causing less environmental damage than I would be if I were to abide by the idiotic HOV law. People who advocate HOV lanes on environmental grounds should spend some time ruminating on that.

[Lord Jim]

I agree with Andrew on this...

The HOV set up in California has been a counter productive failure and ought to be abolished...

Many's the time I have sat in less-than-ten-mile an hour bumper to bumper traffic while over in the HOV lane, one could have enjoyed a picnic without getting run over....(at least by legal HOV traffic)

[oldr_n_wsr]

HOV lanes on the LIE on LI have worked pretty well. They also allow single passenger "green" cars in the lane (PRIUS's etc) and motorcycles. On some days, especially in the summer during rush hour, the HOV lane is slower than the other three lanes but overall it's usually quicker. Also the HOV restrictions are only in effect from 6am-10am then 3pm-8pm. Outside of those hours any car no matter how few occupants can use the HOV lane. And the cops are always patrolling the HOV lane looking for single person cars and other violations (crossing into/out of the lane where you're not supposed to, etc). I see at least two cars pulled over for HOV violations during my commute home.

[rubato]

I carpool and love the HOV lanes. The things increasing pollution are the number of vehicles with one person in them and the number of people driving low-mileage dopemobiles (SUVs)*.

yrs,
rubato

*Dopemobiles are a much smaller fraction of vehicles here than out of state, Portland for example.

[rubato]

"... People who advocate HOV lanes on environmental grounds should spend some time ruminating on that.

Well I would but I get home so much faster in the HOV lane making 58 passenger MPG that I never have time to kill sitting idle in traffic. And I have someone to talk with about her day &c.

511.org

They make carpooling easy.

yrs,
rubato

[Big RR]

Andrew--while there are certainly some who flout the law, I see many having the required number (or more) of passengers in the bay area; much more than I ever saw in NJ. And when I used them I never had a problem cutting back into the nonHOV lanes to exit--there were a lot of problems in NJ with that (so many they abolished the lanes). Likewise, I have seen people picking up strangers before the bay bridge to use the faster toll lanes and pay reduced (I think) tolls--I doubt you'd see that in NJ. FWIW, I have seen 4 way stop signs work in downtown San Francisco--try that in NYC--even lights don't work all that well.

Whether the lanes are more or less environmentlly advantageous, I haven't seen the data so I will reserve judgment.

oldr--if I recall the HOV lanes on the LIE are limited access and egress, solving the problems of getting off the road, correct?

[Big RR]

"... Bandwagon approaches work there.

Appeals to intelligence work here. They work everywhere else, too.

yrs,
rubato

Everywhere? How do you explain Palin's anti-intellectual (thankfully, past) popularity, especially in some areas of the US? One size doe not fit all.

[Lord Jim]

Rube is proving the point Andrew and I are making....

He likes the HOV lanes, because he's one of the tiny fraction of drivers zipping along in them, with nary another car in sight...(as with everything else, rube evaluates this based solely in terms of how it affects him personally)

But looking at the larger picture, at least here in the Bay Area, the HOV concept has been a complete failure, judged by any reasonable yardstick. It's impact from an environmental and fuel conservation stand point is negative, it's improvement on traffic flow is unmeasurably small, and devoting so much asphalt to so few drivers is a squandering of scare state highway resources.

These HOV lanes first started getting implemented back in the 70's, so there's been plenty of time for a meaningful percentage of drivers to embrace the carpool concept if that were going to happen. The evidence is in; this is an experiment that has been a total failure, and it's way past time to pull the plug.

[dales]

Never going to happen.

From HOV lanes to "Lexus Lanes" that state of CAlifornia will reap $$$$ from us poor basterds.

I must admit it was a grand feeling when I did carpool back in the last century. Zipping past those clueless dolts, a feeling of rubato-like superiority came over me. I almost wet my pants.

[Lord Jim]

a feeling of rubato-like superiority came over me

I understand that can now be controlled with medication....

[Big RR]

Jim--point taken; but Californian put up with them; I don't think other states would be so compliant. I say this as someone who stopped wearing my seatbelt for years (always wore it before) when it became the law (I was never cited for it--I even had one of those cheat belt shirts that had the diagonal stripe the size of a belt across it; I finally decided it was stupid to change my behavior either way based on what law was enacted). There are some in many states wjo will view any government mandate (or even promotion) of what's good for you with contempt, and will do exactly the opposite. One size never fits all.

[Andrew D]

"... People who advocate HOV lanes on environmental grounds should spend some time ruminating on that.

Well I would but I am too busy exploiting, purely for my own benefit, a system which is environmentally disastrous while delusionally patting myself on the back.

Fixed that for you.

[Andrew D]

The best way to deal with HOV lanes is to drive in them even when you are driving all by yourself. They are like speed limits: If almost everyone is violating them, almost no one gets cited for violating them.

[dales]

Like prohibition aka: "The Noble Experiment".

[oldr_n_wsr]

oldr--if I recall the HOV lanes on the LIE are limited access and egress, solving the problems of getting off the road, correct?

Yes you are correct. When in the HOV lane they have limited access and egress points and are clearly labeled for the next "few" exits where you need to get out of the HOV to get off on those exits. Access to the HOV lane is usually between each regular entrance although there are a few access points that are an LIE entrance or two further down the road.

And not many ride in the HOV lane illegally as the sheriffs (last few years) and now the SCPD are out there every few exits and change up their locations daily to catch those who might drive solo in the HOV lane or cross the "lines" where entrance and egress are not allowed. All in all, traffic is a little better. Sure you get slowdowns and such, but the HOV is pretty busy and sometimes slows to less than the other three lanes. Seems the HOV is a little faster in getting where you need to go in rush hour, but it is not a ghost town by any means.

[Long Run]

HOV lanes do not work in Portland either. They work a bit better in Seattle where they have many miles of them; and work best where there are a reasonable number of non-HOV lanes (4 or more). It is nonsensical when there are three lanes and one is HOV only, so 95% of the cars have to fit in two lanes and 5% get one lane. Let's face it -- in most places the HOV concept has not changed behavior by increasing carpooling. Instead, it is an expensive and counter-productive reward to those who have more than one person in the car for whatever reason. It is time to try other strategies.

[Guinevere]

From the South Shore into Boston we have what is called a "zipper" lane -- its for HOV vehicles only, but it opens and closes like a zipper (the cement dividers are moved four times a day). In the morning, it provides an additional lane, that is HOV only, going into the city. The outbound lanes are reduced by one, but that's not a huge issue that time of day. The lane closes, so you have four lanes in each direction during non-rush. In the afternoon, it opens and provides an extra lane going out (with the inbound lanes being reduced by one). A state tooper stands at the entrance to monitor users. The lane closes again for the post afternoon rush.

Some times it is jammed and not faster than the regular lanes. Often it is a bit faster.

But the real issue is not HOV lanes, but better CAFE standards, and better, more efficient public transport. Those two items could make a much more signifcant difference in congestion, pollution, and domestic oil consumption.

[dgs49]

Smoking has decreased disproportionately in California because it became unfashionable in a population where appearances are more important than anywhere else. It had nothing to do with government propaganda.

And on the self-inflicted injury/condition subject above, there is a HUGE difference between someone injured because he was rock climbing and a construction worker injured while climbing out of a deep trench. In a sane world, insurance companies could decline coverage where an injury or desease is caused by certain inherently dangerous activities that are stipulated in advance. But of course that would kill a lot of recreatonal "industries."

In Pgh we have one major road with an HOV lane, and it appears to be working as intended. Initially it was limited to vehicles with three or more occupants, but they had to back off that and allow two. But Pgh is not a major metropolitan area.

[rubato]

There is a compounding effect which has occurred after large numbers of smoking have quit. As the percentage of smokers remaining decreases, the social disapproval increases, and the sense of shame which smokers feel increases and motivates them to quit. But this does not explain why a state who smoked at the same rate as the country overall smoked has reduced the habit, it explains why the reduction continues.

The program here has worked in a state with 35 million people, urban and rural, rich and poor, native and immigrant, diverse in national origin and religion, educated and Republican. If your state is composed of these groups, then the evidence shows that this program will work.

yrs,
rubato