A Sensible Solution to the Sequester Problem

[Rick]

It is payment for services rendered, has very little to do with the amount of labor involved.

i.e. some folk get a substantial sum and never hit a lick at a snake...

[Big RR]

I agree; taxatin is payment for services rendered/offered. and Lib, before you say you don't need/want the services, it's a package. When i pay a fee at the gym each month it covers a lot of equipment and services I choose not to use; if I think it is too high, I can go to another gym. Likewise, our elected representatives specify the services offered--if you feel you cando better either lobby for change or look elsewhere. It's hardly being mugged or slavery--you have a clear choice.

[Joe Guy]

I disagree with liberty's comparison and I also disagree with Jarlaxle's comparison of the draft to slavery.

Slaves didn't get paid for their service, receive government sponsored medical care, an education and low cost home loans. Nor were they given weapons or allowed to be promoted to higher paying positions with important military responsibilities.

Slaves could not vote. They did not receive medals of honor from our government for outstanding service. In fact, they were considered to be inferior to white people and people who should not be allowed fair and equal treatment under the law.

[oldr_n_wsr]

While not slavery, I do understand Jaraxlss point. It is some sort of servitude that one does get paid for (but not very well) and one really does not have much of a choice to get out of (flee to another country, hope you have good political connections). Bottom line is the draft is forcing you to do something you do not want to do (like fight and possibly die).

[Jarlaxle]

I disagree with liberty's comparison and I also disagree with Jarlaxle's comparison of the draft to slavery.

Slaves didn't get paid for their service, receive government sponsored medical care, an education and low cost home loans. Nor were they given weapons or allowed to be promoted to higher paying positions with important military responsibilities.

Slaves being turned into soldiers goes back centuries...the Egyptian Mamluk (often spelled as Mameluke) and Turkish Janissary come to mind. Not just soldiers, they were often elite troops!

[Joe Guy]

Slaves being turned into soldiers goes back centuries...the Egyptian Mamluk (often spelled as Mameluke) and Turkish Janissary come to mind. Not just soldiers, they were often elite troops!

That's quite different than saying that present day U.S. civilians being drafted into the military is slavery.

[rubato]

The justification for the draft is that a military is necessary for the the protection and independence of a country and a draft provides a fair and democratic means of supplying soldiers. If the draft is done honestly the chance of any individual being chosen should be equal to the chance of anyone else, allowing for age, fitness, &c.

The advantage of using draftees is that the cost will be borne equally by all tranches of society and thus all groups have an equal incentive to make sure that the justification for any military adventures equals the costs in lives and health which will be paid. Using a professional military removed a lot of the force of that incentive which allowed the Liar Bush-Republicans to waste thousands of US lives and more than a Trillion dollars of treasure in a stupid and pointless war in Iraq. Because the children of the 'monied classes' generally don't enter the military except via the service academies (and have a proportionately lower chance of death) they do not have an incentive to care other than that their Halliburton shares will now pay a larger dividend.

Calling the draft 'slavery' is just ignorant babbling.


yrs,
rubato

[Jarlaxle]

Denying that a draft is slavery is stupidity, evil, or both. Kidnapping someone and forcing him to fight for you can be properly called nothing else.

(In rube's case, I'm going with "both".)

[Econoline]

I'm with Jarl on this one: Congress has the Constitutional authority to impose taxes, but not the authority to impose involuntary servitude: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

[Big RR]

[quote] Using a professional military removed a lot of the force of that incentive which allowed the Liar Bush-Republicans to waste thousands of US lives and more than a Trillion dollars of treasure in a stupid and pointless war in Iraq./quote]

Well to be fair, the draft helped the dems (primarily Kennedy and LBJ) and repubs (Nixon and, to a lesser extent, Ike) to do pretty much the same thing; maybe not a trillion dolars, but about the same in the dollars of the time. It hardly made it necessary for the government to justify anything.

Speaking of Vietnam, as i recall, a challenge to the constitutionality of the draft was upheld based on the power of Congress to declare (and presumably fight) a war, although Vietnam was never really a declared war (anymore than korea was); but the constitutionality of a peace time draft was questioned in dicta and, so far as I know, never ruled on. I do think the comparison with slavery is a just one, but even when the constitution was drafted (and after the 13th amendment was passed) we had wartime drafts.

[rubato]

The draft provided the impetus which got us OUT of Vietnam; a stupid and pointless conflict.



yrs,
rubato

[Joe Guy]

I'm with Jarl on this one: Congress has the Constitutional authority to impose taxes, but not the authority to impose involuntary servitude: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

However, "The Supreme Court has held, in Butler v. Perry, 240 U.S. 328 (1916), that the Thirteenth Amendment does not prohibit "enforcement of those duties which individuals owe to the state, such as services in the army, militia, on the jury, etc." Onerous long term alimony and spousal support orders, premised on a proprietary interest retained by former marital partners in one another's persons, have also been allowed in many states, though they may in practice embody features of involuntary servitude."

[Big RR]

I disagree rubato; I think the draft provided the fodder for the pointless conflict. Without a draft we never could have had an army to go to Vietnam; people weren't volunteering in droves. Of course, when the draft became a birthday lottery and the middle class dodge of college attendance (an educational deferment) was removed, it turned some of the "silent majority against the war", but I maintain the draft made the war possible (as it has for every war we have been involved in except for the recent ones in the middle east).

[dales]

A crappy economy has made an "all-volunteer" possible.

[Guinevere]

It was "all-volunteer" during good economic times, too.

[Lord Jim]

Well Dale, we've had an all-volunteer military force since the mid 70's in good economic times and bad....

[dales]

We were'nt diddling around in Afghanistan/Iraq during that time either.

[rubato]

The "all professional killers" army made Iraq possible.

The problem is that they are professionals when they sign up but they are 'citizen-soldiers' when they need lifetime care for head injuries and amputations.

yrs,
rubato

[Big RR]

True, having a large standing army of trained soldiers made Iraq (and Afghanistan for that mattter) possible (as it did Gulf War 1), but if an escalation was desired a draft would have been needed (as many speculated at the time). People rarely volunteer to be cannon fodder, even in popular wars (like WW2).

[Econoline]

Just came across some interesting statistics regarding the military and the draft during the Vietnam war:

25% (648,500) of total forces in country were draftees. (66% of U.S. armed forces members were drafted during WWII.)

Draftees accounted for 30.4% (17,725) of combat deaths in Vietnam.

Reservists killed: 5,977.

National Guard: 6,140 served; 101 died.

Total draftees (1965-73): 1,728,344.

Actually served in Vietnam: 38% (source)