WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

[liberty]

I feel I need to make a minor correction to my previous post: I don't expect anything to happen for the next few years after Russia conquers Ukraine. Russia will need to repair the damage done to infrastructure by the war and Putin will have to rebuild the army but then all bets are off. However, I don't expect liberals to be able to see that far into the future.

[Big RR]

liberals? It's the neocons (with an emphasis on cons) who are handing Ukraine to them--the hell with burgeoning democracies.

However, if we lose Trump what happens to the struggle against illegal immigration, a runaway national debt, and China eating our lunch and putting our people out of work and stealing our secrets.

We can start addressing those issues with real ideas on how to resolve them; especially, if we lose some of the knee jerk Trump supporters in Congress.

[Scooter]

[MajGenl.Meade]

Longtime Republican columnist and commentator David Brooks said the following after the White House mistreatment of the Ukrainian president on Friday.

“I was nauseated, just nauseated. All my life, I have had a certain idea of about America, that we're a flawed country, but we're fundamentally a force for good in the world, that we defeated Soviet Union, we defeated fascism, we did the Marshall Plan, we did PEPFAR (President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief) to help people live in Africa. And we make mistakes, Iraq, Vietnam, but they're usually mistakes out of stupidity, naivete and arrogance.

“They're not because we're ill-intentioned. What I have seen over the last six weeks is the United States behaving vilely, vilely to our friends in Canada and Mexico, vilely to our friends in Europe. And today was the bottom of the barrel, vilely to a man who is defending Western values, at great personal risk to him and his countrymen."

“Donald Trump believes in one thing. He believes that might makes right. And, in that, he agrees with Vladimir Putin that they are birds of a feather. And he and Vladimir Putin together are trying to create a world that's safe for gangsters, where ruthless people can thrive. And we saw the product of that effort today in the Oval Office.

“And I have — I first started thinking, is it — am I feeling grief? Am I feeling shock, like I'm in a hallucination? But I just think shame, moral shame. It's a moral injury to see the country you love behave in this way.”

[Big RR]

[BoSoxGal]

Former President of Poland Lech Walesa wrote the following letter to Trump:

Your Excellency, Mr. President,

We watched the report of your conversation with the President of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelensky, with fear and distaste. We find it insulting that you expect Ukraine to show respect and gratitude for the material assistance provided by the United States in its fight against russia. Gratitude is owed to the heroic Ukrainian soldiers who shed their blood in defense of the values of the free world. They have been dying on the front lines for more than 11 years in the name of these values and the independence of their homeland, which was attacked by Putin’s russia.

We do not understand how the leader of a country that symbolizes the free world cannot recognize this.

Our alarm was also heightened by the atmosphere in the Oval Office during this conversation, which reminded us of the interrogations we endured at the hands of the Security Services and the debates in Communist courts. Prosecutors and judges, acting on behalf of the all-powerful communist political police, would explain to us that they held all the power while we held none. They demanded that we cease our activities, arguing that thousands of innocent people suffered because of us. They stripped us of our freedoms and civil rights because we refused to cooperate with the government or express gratitude for our oppression. We are shocked that President Volodymyr Zelensky was treated in the same manner.

The history of the 20th century shows that whenever the United States sought to distance itself from democratic values and its European allies, it ultimately became a threat to itself. President Woodrow Wilson understood this when he decided in 1917 that the United States must join World War I. President Franklin Delano Roosevelt understood this when, after the attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941, he resolved that the war to defend America must be fought not only in the Pacific but also in Europe, in alliance with the nations under attack by the Third Reich.

We remember that without President Ronald Reagan and America’s financial commitment, the collapse of the Soviet empire would not have been possible. President Reagan recognized that millions of enslaved people suffered in Soviet russia and the countries it had subjugated, including thousands of political prisoners who paid for their defense of democratic values with their freedom. His greatness lay, among other things, in his unwavering decision to call the USSR an “Empire of Evil” and to fight it decisively. We won, and today, the statue of President Ronald Reagan stands in Warsaw, facing the U.S. Embassy.

Mr. President, material aid—military and financial—can never be equated with the blood shed in the name of Ukraine’s independence and the freedom of Europe and the entire free world. Human life is priceless; its value cannot be measured in money. Gratitude is due to those who sacrifice their blood and their freedom. This is self-evident to us, the people of Solidarity, former political prisoners of the communist regime under Soviet russia.

We call on the United States to uphold the guarantees made alongside Great Britain in the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, which established a direct obligation to defend Ukraine’s territorial integrity in exchange for its relinquishment of nuclear weapons. These guarantees are unconditional—there is no mention of treating such assistance as an economic transaction.

Signed,
Lech Wałęsa, former political prisoner, President of Poland

[liberty]

I believe that support for Ukraine runs about 4 to1 at least that is what I hope, but it doesn't matter unless people speak up; what happens to Ukraine is important especially for the future of our grandchildren. Russia has to be dissuaded from being an aggressive military power. Let me make something clear right now; I am not a liberal and I hold Biden responsible for what's happening in Ukraine. If he hadn't been such a coward during the period of time which military aid was not going to Ukraine, we would be in a much better position. If as Commander-in-chief had opened up the warehouses, that he has control of, and sent the weapons to Ukraine I don't think we'd be in this situation. However, that's in the past now and if Trump is not willing to provide weapons to Ukraine, then he must be forced to do it'

liberals use the word Hitler and racist to the point they are overused and now they're almost useless. Too many people now can't see that Putin is a Hitler like character he won't be satisfied with anything less than everything. It's you liberals, it is your fault; you put politics above national security you should have been encouraging Biden to open up the warehouses to send the weapons the Ukrainians needed instead of playing politics. However, it is not too late please contact your senators and representatives tell them to override trump, if necessary and make sure the Ukrainians get the weapons they need. The Ukrainians cannot be allowed to lose to the Russians. They need to get the weapons they need to push the Russians out. If the Ukrainians fail, it's going to be bad for us in the future.

[Joe Guy]

So it's Biden's and all liberal's fault that Russia invaded Ukraine?

And now that Trump is in office and has taken Putin's side by withholding aid to Zelenskyy, you think liberals could somehow convince MAGA congresspeople to go against Trump?

Why don't you and your MAGA-comrades stand up and challenge Trump?

Quit blaming liberals for everything that Trump is doing.

[BoSoxGal]

I believe that support for Ukraine runs about 4 to1 at least that is what I hope, but it doesn't matter unless people speak up; what happens to Ukraine is important especially for the future of our grandchildren. Russia has to be dissuaded from being an aggressive military power. Let me make something clear right now; I am not a liberal and I hold Biden responsible for what's happening in Ukraine. If he hadn't been such a coward during the period of time which military aid was not going to Ukraine, we would be in a much better position. If as Commander-in-chief had opened up the warehouses, that he has control of, and sent the weapons to Ukraine I don't think we'd be in this situation. However, that's in the past now and if Trump is not willing to provide weapons to Ukraine, then he must be forced to do it'

liberals use the word Hitler and racist to the point they are overused and now they're almost useless. Too many people now can't see that Putin is a Hitler like character he won't be satisfied with anything less than everything. It's you liberals, it is your fault; you put politics above national security you should have been encouraging Biden to open up the warehouses to send the weapons the Ukrainians needed instead of playing politics. However, it is not too late please contact your senators and representatives tell them to override trump, if necessary and make sure the Ukrainians get the weapons they need. The Ukrainians cannot be allowed to lose to the Russians. They need to get the weapons they need to push the Russians out. If the Ukrainians fail, it's going to be bad for us in the future.

I am seriously concerned about your cognitive status, liberty.

We liberals are fully on board with Putin is a dictator, Putin is like Hitler, Putin is the aggressor. We are fully on board with accepting Ukrainian refugees and assisting Ukraine in the fight against the invasion by Russia.

It's FOX News and other right wing outlets which have been pushing the narrative that Putin can be negotiated with - Tucker Carlson is the darling of Russia and one of Putin's greatest media allies, opposing support for Ukraine and pushing a pro-Russian propaganda.

Look to the beam in thine own eye, liberty.

As to the issue of have we failed to support Ukraine appropriately in the past? Absolutely. It is one of the greatest failings of the Obama administration that he did not meet the challenge when Putin invaded Crimea. We failed to see the threat of Russia under both Bushes as well, so the blame is wholly bipartisan. The solution must also be bipartisan so it is shocking to see the capitulation of Rubio and other once stalwart Russia hawks to Donold's pro-Putin agenda.


PS - saw a great interview with one of the Vindman brothers this last weekend with discussion of the disastrous Trump - Zelenskyy meeting in the Oval but also his newly published book, The Folly of Realism: How the West Deceived Itself about Russia and Betrayed Ukraine. I've put a hold on the copy my library is acquiring, I hope they get more copies I'm #7 on the list.

The USA failure to get a handle on post Soviet Russia will be studied exhaustively in political science courses for generations to come, but we are in the midst of it still and really need to listen to voices who understand and not to the insane person the morons elected to the WH. Putin is long in the tooth and we need a strategy for the rest of his tenure and also post Putin Russia. Can we ever make an ally of Russia? Are the Russian people even interested?

[Big RR]

So it's Biden's and all liberal's fault that Russia invaded Ukraine?

And now that Trump is in office and has taken Putin's side by withholding aid to Zelenskyy, you think liberals could somehow convince MAGA congresspeople to go against Trump?

Why don't you and your MAGA-comrades stand up and challenge Trump?

Quit blaming liberals for everything that Trump is doing.

I have to agree; Trump isn't a "liberal" nor are all the MAGA types who made the support of the Ukraine as an issue during the Biden administration. sure Biden didn't give them everything they wanted, but he didn't have the power to act unilaterally around the will of Congress, nor should he have. I know you like the idea of an imperial presidency where the president can act unilaterally and subvert the will of the people (through their directly elected representatives), but I would not want to live in a country like that (especially with the cabal we have in the WH now). Sure it's messy and tough to get things done, but it's a lot better than giving one man or an oligarchy unlimited power. Saying an issue has been "politicized" on;y mans that it is being discussed and disputed--the essence of a democracy.

And as Joe said, if you want to blame someone for the fialings in supporting Ukraine, place the bame where it belongs--on your MAGA comrades.

[BoSoxGal]

[Scooter]

[liberty]

If your boy had stopped illegal immigration Trump would have never been elected. Trump hadn't quite stopped it yet, but he's on his way and that's more than Biden never tried to do.

[Scooter]

The image would have been made better by having Trump and Putin monsters in the pit trying to grab at them.

[Bicycle Bill]

If your boy had stopped illegal immigration Trump would have never been elected. Trump hadn't quite stopped it yet, but he's on his way and that's more than Biden never tried to do.

liberty, you're so racist I bet when you order an omelet you tell them to make it KKK-style — whites only.

-"BB"-

[MajGenl.Meade]

If Hindenburg had killed all the Jews, Hitler would have never been elected. Adolf hadn't (sic) quite stopped it yet, but he's on his way and that's more than Hindenburg never (sic) tried to do.

FTFY

[Scooter]

When even George W. Bush has it figured out, you've got to be lacking the brain cells of a honeydew melon not to see it.

America First should not put Russia second

To the dismay of those who support freedom, the world is turning toward the appeasement of dictators.

It was painful to watch last week’s meeting in the Oval Office, a room President George W. Bush has often called a “shrine to freedom.” President Donald Trump and Vice President J.D. Vance attacked Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the democratically-elected Ukrainian president who is leading the fight against a dictatorial aggressor.

To insinuate that Ukraine is somehow the perpetrator of the aggression, the saber-rattling toward World War III, and the impediment to peace is delusional. Nobody wants the war to end more than Ukrainians, who, after all, are the ones suffering and dying from Vladimir Putin’s war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide. The bombardment by Russia is constant. Peace will only come the day Russia ceases fighting. In the meantime, Ukrainians are justified in defending their sovereign territory.

Any peace deal should be a lasting one, not simply a Neville Chamberlain-esque exercise in the temporary appeasement of an aggressor. Ukrainians and Zelenskyy need assurances that they are never attacked again. They ask for security guarantees to deter Putin from launching further aggression, given his failure to keep his prior promises.

They are on the front lines, fighting not just for their freedom but for ours as well. If the United States were to appease the invader, Russia would regain the military advantage, and nothing would stop it from moving deeper into Ukraine at some point. Putin, who has consistently reneged on agreements, would feel emboldened and ultimately target other countries in the region, for example the NATO-member Baltic states, as he marches toward reassembling the former Soviet Union. Recall that our weak withdrawal from Afghanistan may have given Putin the idea that he could get away with his full-scale invasion of Ukraine six months later.

The Ukrainians have demonstrated tremendous bravery and innovation against a much larger fighting force. They are extremely grateful for America’s support – and have consistently expressed that. With that support, they disproved predictions that Russia would overtake Ukraine in a matter of days or weeks. They have inflicted huge losses on the Russian side and significantly weakened Russia’s military capabilities.

It’s also worth noting that nearly 70% of total Ukraine assistance is spent in the United States or on U.S. forces, according to a study by the American Enterprise Institute (AEI). That creates jobs for Americans while also helping Ukraine and helping to rebuild our atrophied defense industrial base. Moreover, a different AEI study found that ceasing our support for Ukraine will be much more costly for the United States in the long run – to the tune of an additional $800 billion in defense spending if Russia overruns Ukraine.

Putin and Xi Jinping must be celebrating that their talking points have been taken up in Washington. Former Russian President Dmitri Medvedev posted on X: “The insolent pig finally got a proper slap down in the Oval Office.” Our democratic friends in Taiwan are now worried they might be next.

President Trump was elected to pursue the America First foreign policy agenda on which he campaigned, and he has every right to do so. But voters did not mandate “America First, Russia Second.” Indeed, it remains in the U.S. national security interest to provide support to an independent and sovereign Ukraine.

Let there be no mistake: Ukraine and Ukrainians are our friends and allies; Putin’s Russia is the enemy. We must treat our friends as friends and our adversaries as adversaries. Most Americans seem to understand this: a recent poll cited in the Wall Street Journal found 69% of Republican voters say Russia is the aggressor and 83% disapprove of Putin.

Leaders in Europe, undoubtedly distressed by what they witnessed in Washington, have voiced their support for Ukraine. Europeans are painfully aware of the similarities to the 1930s and the dangers of an appeasement strategy that led to World War II. They understand the problems with having the United States and Russia meet to discuss Ukraine without Ukraine or Europeans involved.

Over the weekend European leaders voiced strong support for Zelenskyy, reassuring Ukraine that it is not being abandoned. But it would be much more powerful for the United States and Europe to remain together in backing Ukraine than for Washington to cede its leadership role to Brussels.

It is Putin’s forces who have brutalized Ukrainians every day since 2014. It is Putin who insists on a change in the Ukrainian government, permanent neutrality for Ukraine, and recognition of illegally occupied Ukrainian territory – all demands that are nonstarters for the Ukrainian side in negotiations.

For the good of both countries and for the cause of freedom, it is vital that the United States and Ukraine get back on track. There may soon be a meeting between Trump and Putin, in which Putin will surely attempt to manipulate our president. One can only hope that our American leader will adopt a tougher line toward his Russian counterpart, America’s enemy, than he did toward Zelenskyy, America’s friend. After all, Zelenskyy and Ukrainians want the war to end, just not through imposed capitulation. By contrast, it is Putin who has shown no serious interest in ending the fighting and killing.

President Trump rightly said that lives are at stake. So are freedom and democracy around the world. Appeasement and concessions hardly form the peace through strength that prevents future bloodshed.

[liberty]

If Hindenburg had killed all the Jews, Hitler would have never been elected. Adolf hadn't (sic) quite stopped it yet, but he's on his way and that's more than Hindenburg ever (sic) tried to do.

FTFY

That's the craziest thing you ever done you're equating Border Patrol and secure borders with Nazi Death camps; that is stupid every country has a right to defend their borders from anyone.

[Burning Petard]

Yes, Liberty, but. Defend is a big word. Every country has a right to defend its borders---with atomic warhead containing land mines? The right to ignore international treaties on refugees that the US Senate has confirmed?

The internment camps in Gitmo look to me alot like concentration camps. The big temper tantrums among Federal unelected bureaucrats because of the low numbers the ICE raids have produced seems to me to be adequate proof that the invasion of criminals and former patients of mental institutions that the current CinC has repeatedly cited is non-existent.

snailgate

[MajGenl.Meade]

If Hindenburg had killed all the Jews, Hitler would have never been elected. Adolf hadn't (sic) quite stopped it yet, but he's on his way and that's more than Hindenburg ever (sic) tried to do.

FTFY

That's the craziest thing you ever done you're equating Border Patrol and secure borders with Nazi Death camps; that is stupid every country has a right to defend their borders from anyone.

No, I'm not. Just taking the piss out of your stupid argument.