Real Economists on Raising the Minimum Wage

[rubato]

Self-justification makes you even weaker and more impotent.

yrs,
rubato

[oldr_n_wsr]

I thought prostate problems did that. at least for me it did

[dgs49]

California's government and the governments of many of its municipalities have conspicuously ignored economic realities over the past several decades, promising the citizens a cornucopia of expensive government programs while engorging public sector employees with pay and benefits that defy belief.

Thus, they are faced with a mountain of financial obligations that are only beginning to surface now. The actual "debt" is bad enough, but the known future obligations are an order of magnitude higher.

The "balanced budget" is meaningless in the face of this coming tsunami, and if it were not for the lovely weather (which is unrelated to the state government), the professional class would be abandoning California now in droves, as there is simply no way to avoid a crushing tax burden five years out and beyond.

But the tens of millions of government teat suckers - mainly Mexican - will certainly remain, as they don't pay no taxes anyway.

In short, it doesn't look pretty.

[Grim Reaper]

But the tens of millions of government teat suckers - mainly Mexican - will certainly remain, as they don't pay no taxes anyway.

Many illegal immigrants do pay taxes, but reality has to be discarded in favor if ideology when the facts are inconvenient.

[oldr_n_wsr]

But the tens of millions of government teat suckers - mainly Mexican - will certainly remain, as they don't pay no taxes anyway.

Many illegal immigrants do pay taxes, but reality has to be discarded in favor if ideology when the facts are inconvenient.

If they work off the books (as many here in Farmingville Long Island NY do) they do not pay income taxes. Sales tax yes, income tax no. Property tax, I guess they contribute as part of their rent.

[rubato]

Mexican immigrants pay the same taxes that anyone would pay for doing the same jobs. If they are not contributing enough in taxes then their pay is too low and should be raised.


yrs,
rubato

[oldr_n_wsr]

Mexican immigrants pay the same taxes that anyone would pay for doing the same jobs. If they are not contributing enough in taxes then their pay is too low and should be raised.


yrs,
rubato

And if they work off the books? How much income tax do they pay? I'll fill you in, that amount is $0.
Come on over to the east coast and visit Farmingville (my town). I'll even give you room and board during your stay. We can take a ride every day at 6am down to the local 7-11 and see how many illegal immigrants are hired to work for cash for the day. We can ask them how much of their paycheck goes to income taxes and how they filed their 1040. We can ask those who hire them how much payroll tax they pay for those they hire (heres the amount, $0).
You say they don't make enough to pay taxes? The going rate is $120 per day cash. I'll say a 10 hour day (just to make the math easier) that's $12 an hour. Well above minimum.
Come into the real world.

[Gob]

I'm not laughing at O-n-Ws "come into the real world" idea so much as his thinking rubato would actually come out of his mother's basement and meet a Plan B'er

[Econoline]

Mexican immigrants pay the same taxes that anyone would pay for doing the same jobs.

And if they work off the books? How much income tax do they pay? I'll fill you in, that amount is $0.

In other words, exactly the same as any American who works off the books, for cash....

[Grim Reaper]

If they work off the books (as many here in Farmingville Long Island NY do) they do not pay income taxes. Sales tax yes, income tax no. Property tax, I guess they contribute as part of their rent.

That's still different from saying "they don't pay no taxes anyway".

And the IRS estimates that about 6 million unauthorized immigrants file income tax returns each year.

[rubato]

Mexican immigrants pay the same taxes that anyone would pay for doing the same jobs. If they are not contributing enough in taxes then their pay is too low and should be raised.


yrs,
rubato

And if they work off the books? How much income tax do they pay? I'll fill you in, that amount is $0.
Come on over to the east coast and visit Farmingville (my town). I'll even give you room and board during your stay. We can take a ride every day at 6am down to the local 7-11 and see how many illegal immigrants are hired to work for cash for the day. We can ask them how much of their paycheck goes to income taxes and how they filed their 1040. We can ask those who hire them how much payroll tax they pay for those they hire (heres the amount, $0).
You say they don't make enough to pay taxes? The going rate is $120 per day cash. I'll say a 10 hour day (just to make the math easier) that's $12 an hour. Well above minimum.
Come into the real world.

What percentage of illegal immigrant labor is in casual day labor like that? Very little. Larger numbers have regular jobs working for people who need to deduct their pay from business income so THEY don't have to pay income taxes on it themselves. It is estimated that 3/4ths of illegal immigrants pay income and payroll taxes by using fake SS numbers.

But the few doing casual day labor don't make enough to owe income taxes anyway. The work is variable. You could figure that out yourself; if they were somewhere working they would not be standing there for you to see them. Standing around waiting for a job pays -0-.

yrs,
rubato

[rubato]

The truth is that they pay more than they get back. A lot more.



http://archive.truthout.org/undocumente ... efits59264

Undocumented Immigrants Pay More in Taxes Than They Receive in Benefits

Monday 03 May 2010

by: Alberto Ponce de León | El Diario de El Paso (the United States)

Undocumented Immigrants Pay More in Taxes Than They Receive in Benefits
(Photo: jvoves / Flickr)

During their working life, undocumented immigrants in the United States will pay, on average, approximately $80,000 more in taxes per capita than they use in government services, owing to the fact that they are not eligible to take advantage of almost all of the social service programs offered by the federal government, according to a study released by the National Council of La Raza.

According to the report, in June of 2007, the president's Council of Economic Advisers stated that the "impact of undocumented immigration on public budgets is likely to be very positive."

The report cites the Texas Comptroller's disclosure that, in 2006, undocumented immigrants paid about $424.7 million more in state revenues - including sales tax and school property tax - than they used in state services, including education and health care.

In addition to sales and property taxes, [an estimated three-quarters] of undocumented immigrants also pay payroll taxes through the use of false Social Security numbers.

According to statistics from the National Council of La Raza, these employees contribute approximately $7 billion to Social Security and $1.5 billion to Medicare every year, despite the fact that they are ineligible to receive these benefits. These numbers serve to counter arguments, promoted by anti-immigration forces, that undocumented immigrants are a drain on the state.

"These immigrants' contributions to these programs are collected by the federal government to help it meet its goals," according to the National Council of La Raza.

According to the national report, the majority of undocumented laborers also receive a very low salary, and often have no protections against workplace abuse.

In 2005, more than 1.5 million undocumented immigrants in the United States worked as either housekeepers or domestic laborers. Because of their legal status, these immigrants received an average weekly salary of $355 in 2006. The national average for this line of work in that same year was $671 a week.

[dales]

ILLEGALS OUT NOW!

[oldr_n_wsr]

What percentage of illegal immigrant labor is in casual day labor like that? Very little.

Do you get out of your house? And if you do, do you live in a neighborhood that has a very large illegal immigrant population? I live in Farmingville Long Island NY (look it up, we're on google for more bad things than should have happened) which is basically Hildago Mexico North East. Come to my town and see "how little" labor is hired off the books.
Any time you want, I have a fold out couch and you won't have to rent a hotel room. We'll even go to Outback for some steaks, my treat. You can see for yourself who and how many are working off hte books. As I said, sales tax and rent paid contribute to the tax base, but income $0. We'll even take a trip to Westbury NY which is another enclave and you can see it again for yourself.

About ten years ago (maybe more I forget) I was starting a roofing business. I refused to hire illegals and went by all the rules and regulations (payroll taxes, employee compensaion, insurance, licence, etc). I could not compete with those who bent/broke the laws. Teh only compensation I got was from homeowners who did hire the "others" when they called me to have me fix their roofs that were leaking after they just had a new one put on and could not contact the guy who put it on. I had left the business by than and just said "sorry, I cannot help you".

It's easy to sit back and say they pay taxes and are not a burden to society as a whole, and that might be true. But when you live in the community that has 100+ illegal aliens standing outside each of the three 7-11's every morning and the houses they rent look like they should be torn down, you might sing a different tune.

[rubato]

The objective research says that 3/4ths of illegal labor is on the books and that they pay a lot more in taxes than they get in benefits; and for your benefit I repeat the observation that people standing outside 7-11 (or the local lumberyards) are not working. And if their method of finding work was efficient there would be fewer of them standing there. When I go to the local lumber-garden store there are 8 people standing around at 2pm when most of the working day is over.





yrs,
rubato

[dgs49]

The advertisers for Trident sugarless gum used to run ads that trumped the fact that, "Four out of five dentists surveyed recommended sugarless gum for their patients who chew gum!" I always used to wonder about that 20% of dentists who did NOT recommend sugarless gum for their patients who chewed gum. What's wrong with them?

They are apparently related (by blood or otherwise) to the "economists" mentioned at the top of this thread, who appear to believe that for human labor in the USA - as contrasted with every other commodity in the known economic universe - demand does NOT decrease as the price is arbitrarily increased.

For those who are not economic idiots, I have attempted to post a link to an article that tracks the effects of population-adjusted minimum wage laws with employment among young adults. Not surprisingly, employment goes down as the MW goes up.

http://finance.townhall.com/columnists/ ... page/full/

On a more recent note, I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO SEE THE "OBJECTIVE RESEARCH" THAT PROVES THAT ILLEGAL ALIENS PAY "A LOT MORE IN TAXES" THAN THEY RECEIVE IN BENEFITS. This may be the single most preposterous thing ever posted by the rubato person.

[oldr_n_wsr]

Drop by at 5-6am and see the amount and watch the people get hired. There are always going to be the few that do not get hired. The majority do. And the few left at 2pm are either those that have finished up and are looking for more or those that have no given up being hired for the day.
As I said, google Farmingville NY and you will see the REAL situation.
3/4 pay income taxes???? I doubt that very much. And what they pay versus what the take out in terms of benefits is open for debate. ER's around here run a defecit (Especially Brookhaven hospital).

[oldr_n_wsr]

"Four out of five dentists surveyed recommended sugarless gum for their patients who chew gum!"

I dated a girl whose father was a dentist. He explained how the gum people could claim this was that they would send gum to a bunch of dentists with a (dis)claimer saying that if the dentist did not respond negatively to the the promotion, they would count that dentist as giving his recommendation.

[Gob]

Were California's state government a business, it would be a candidate for insolvency with a negative net worth of $127.2 billion, according to an annual financial report issued by State Auditor Elaine Howle and the Bureau of State Audits.


The report, which covers the fiscal year ending June 30, 2012, says that the state's negative status -- all of its assets minus all of its liabilities -- increased that year, largely because it spent more than it received in revenue.
During the 2011-12 fiscal year, the state's general fund spent $1.7 billion more than it received in revenues and wound up with an accumulated deficit of just under $23 billion from several years of red ink. Gov. Jerry Brown has referred to that and other budget gaps, mostly money owed to schools, as a "wall of debt" totaling more than $30 billion.

Last November, voters passed an increase in sales and income taxes that Brown says will balance the state's operating budget and allow the debt wall to be gradually dismantled.

About half of the $127.2 billion in accumulated red ink came from the state's issuing general obligation bonds and then giving the money to local governments and school districts for public works projects, the auditor pointed out. The assets built with the bonds remain on local balance sheets while the bonded debt accrues to the state.
The remainder, however, is all on the state's ticket. "Expenses that exceeded revenues and increased long-term obligations resulted in an 81.4 percent decrease in the total net assets for governmental and business-type activities from the 20-10-11 fiscal year," said the report.

The report listed the state's long-term obligations at $167.9 billion, nearly half of which ($79.9 billion) were in general obligation bonds, with another $30.8 billion in revenue bonds, many of which were issued to build state prisons, whose "revenue" is lease payments from the state general fund.

The list of long-term obligations did not include the much-disputed unfunded liabilities for state employees' future pensions, nor the $60-plus billion in unfunded liabilities for retiree health care. The Governmental Accounting Standards Board and Moody's, a major bond credit rating house, have been pushing states and localities to include unfunded retiree obligations in their balance sheets and were they to be added to California's, it could push its negative net worth down by several hundred billion dollars.

Read more here: http://blogs.sacbee.com/capitolalertlat ... rylink=cpy

[oldr_n_wsr]

What was that about blue states?