I've Changed My Mind About Trump

[Bicycle Bill]

These fucking guys.

Rudy Giuliani and Eric Trump launch furious attack on US democracy and promise wave of lawsuits to stop Biden

Giuliani claimed at the Philadelphia press conference, ‘We’re going to win this election. We’ve actually won it.'

Madeline Roth
Members of the Trump campaign, including Eric Trump and Rudy Giuliani, held a press conference in Philadelphia on Wednesday afternoon in which they claimed Donald Trump has not only won the state of Pennsylvania, but the entire US presidential election.

Eric Trump spoke first, alleging that Democrats are trying to “cheat” by committing mass voter fraud and vowing to file a lawsuit to halt vote-counting in Pennsylvania.

“We're going to win Pennsylvania, but they're trying to cheat us out of it because they know it's their only path to victory,” he said. “We are going to file a suit in Pennsylvania. It is the last thing that we wanted to do, it's the last thing my father wanted to do. But this is rampant corruption. It can’t happen. It’s not fair. This isn’t democracy.”

Eric Trump then introduced Mr Giuliani, whom he said was "leading the legal effort" on behalf of the Trump campaign. The former New York City mayor fired off a litany of criticism aimed at Joe Biden and Democrats.

"This is beyond anything I have ever seen before," Mr Giuliani told the crowd of Trump supporters. "Do you think we're stupid? Do you think we're fools? You know something, Democrats do think you're stupid. And they do think you're fools. That's why you get called 'deplorable' and 'chumps.'"

He continued, "We're going to stick with this. We're going to win this election. We've actually won it. It's just a matter of counting the votes fairly."

Mr Giuliani said the Trump campaign has already filed a lawsuit in Pennsylvania that alleges Republicans were not given the proper chance to observe the opening and sorting of ballots. He added that they may also file a federal lawsuit against what they claim is voter fraud, to "really expose the corruption of the Democratic Party."

Just remember — the guy who wants to stop the counting because he claims, in a now-deleted or administratively-blocked Tweet, that "they keep finding more votes" (for Biden, apparently; all you would hear is crickets otherwise) is the same asshole who wanted to stop testing for Covid because "if we didn't test so much we wouldn't find so many cases."

-"BB"-

[MajGenl.Meade]

Remember, remember, the Fifth of November
Election treason and plot
I see no reason why White House treason
Should ever be forgot



Don False, Don False, 'twas his idea
To blow up the Constitution this year
Three score barrels of b/s below
Poor old America to overthrow
By God's providence he was catch'd
With a dark intent and burning match
Holler boys, holler boys, let the bells ring

[Sue U]

I've said it before and . . . a very large number of Americans are sick and tired of liberal superiority, criticism, and being despised by intellectual elitists.

Well, that's a different post, but I agree with you, at least re the fact that it is a perception among many Trump voters and "Reagan democrats"; Biden said he could win those voters back, but that does not appear to be the case. And it's something the democratic party has to address.

I am shocked seeing either of you give credence to this bullshit, which is a patently false narrative spun by right-wing pols since Spiro Agnew. This is precisely the snake oil fed to what is now the Trumpian base that fuels their politics of fear, spite and resentment, and which allows them to defiantly fly their freak flags of conspiracy theories, willful ignorance and racism. George Soros is definitely paying BLM protestors for setting fire to your suburb so Marxists can force you to gay-marry an illegal Muslim immigrant with COVID to make doctors rich.

ETA: The Democratic Party doesn't need to mollify the retrograde right. It needs to clearly articulate the benefits of progressive public policy that, yes, will require some change in the way we do things, but will tangilby improve the lives of the vast majority.

[MajGenl.Meade]

I am shocked seeing either of you give credence to this bullshit, which is a patently false narrative spun by right-wing pols since Spiro Agnew.

Said the liberal, shooting down anyone else's opinion, experience and knowledge because "we are correct and you are wrong"

I am fed up with liberal bossing. I talk to a lot of people who are sick of it. To you, that makes us evil, wrong, phobic, nasty, etc. etc. If Trump was not such a monster, I might well have voted for him both times just to stick it to leftist elitists. I don't understand those who did vote for him despite his awfulness - nothing was worth that.

[Big RR]

I am shocked seeing either of you give credence to this bullshi

'
What credence? Right or wrong (and FWIW, I think the perception is completely wrong (or, at least, grossly overstated)), but it is a perception nonetheless which should be dealt with. Look at Meade's post and you'll see the perception pretty clearly stated; if you think your clearer articulation of the benefits will effectively deal with it, go a head and try. I personally think we need to do a better job of selling the policies and opening dialogues with those who feel left behind. Otherwise, we are just pushing them into the camp of the next Trump, who could be a lot worse then this one.

[BoSoxGal]

Remember, remember, the Fifth of November
Election treason and plot
I see no reason why White House treason
Should ever be forgot



Don False, Don False, 'twas his idea
To blow up the Constitution this year
Three score barrels of b/s below
Poor old America to overthrow
By God's providence he was catch'd
With a dark intent and burning match
Holler boys, holler boys, let the bells ring

[BoSoxGal]

I tend to agree with all of what Sue posted but then we all know I don’t suffer what I determine are fools lightly.

That said it’s Big RR’s last point that is ever present in my mind; we live among at least ~69,000,000 folks who are willing to gamble our entire democracy on their grievances. That’s terrifying. And now there are psychopaths far smarter than Donald Trump who are ready to take advantage of that fertile ground.

And yeah I’m talking about Tucker Carlson, America’s ‘number one in ratings’ FOX News propaganda political commentary host. That guy terrifies me, especially if you see the fan base he has on social media.

[MajGenl.Meade]

That said it’s Big RR’s last point that is ever present in my mind; we live among at least ~69,000,000 folks who are willing to gamble our entire democracy on their grievances. That’s terrifying. And now there are psychopaths far smarter than Donald Trump who are ready to take advantage of that fertile ground.

And yeah I’m talking about Tucker Carlson, America’s ‘number one in ratings’ FOX News propaganda political commentary host. That guy terrifies me, especially if you see the fan base he has on social media.

Now there's some good points there. "Gambling our entire democracy on their grievances" exactly! And *ucker Carlson is the kind of person intending to double-down on Trumpism.

Someone smarter than Trump might succeed in swelling that sense of grievance (that things have gone very wrong) and dressing it up as a unicorn rather than a pig, as the current PINO does. It's not far from that before the peasants are storming the castle with fiery torches. But think about it - why do the peasants do it? Not because they are stupid, but because they are pissed off.

[TPFKA@W]

Yeah, that left wing hubris that got Hillabeast elected. Oh wait that didn't happen. You'd think it would have sent a message to the mothership, but it did not.

[Guinevere]

I am shocked seeing either of you give credence to this bullshit, which is a patently false narrative spun by right-wing pols since Spiro Agnew.

Said the liberal, shooting down anyone else's opinion, experience and knowledge because "we are correct and you are wrong"

I am fed up with liberal bossing. I talk to a lot of people who are sick of it. To you, that makes us evil, wrong, phobic, nasty, etc. etc. If Trump was not such a monster, I might well have voted for him both times just to stick it to leftist elitists. I don't understand those who did vote for him despite his awfulness - nothing was worth that.

Disagreement (and basing the disagreement on some facts) is "liberal bossing?

I'm fed up with people who disagree with me telling me I'm a leftist elitist, because of my education and my job, but not knowing a thing about me.

I'm fed up with people telling me what I can and cannot do with my body, who I can love, and who I can marry.

I'm fed up with leadership at the local, state, and federal level that doesn't look like America, and is still too old, too white, and too male. And don't even get me started on the corporate world, which is even worse.

I'm fed up with people pretending that voting for Trump isn't racist, sexist, and elitist.

[Sue U]

I am shocked seeing either of you give credence to this bullshit, which is a patently false narrative spun by right-wing pols since Spiro Agnew.

Said the liberal, shooting down anyone else's opinion, experience and knowledge because "we are correct and you are wrong"

I am fed up with liberal bossing. I talk to a lot of people who are sick of it.

First, I am not a liberal (how many times do I have to say that?). But even if I were, who is it that is "bossing" you? How are you being "bossed"? Who are these terrible liberal tyrants forcing you to -- what, have affordable healthcare? A living wage? A habitable planet? A modicum of respect for human rights? You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but when I point out that it may very well be founded on decades of baseless propaganda, immediately you accuse me of calling you "evil, wrong, phobic, nasty, etc. etc." rather than providing some cogent support for your beliefs. WTF? For the last 50 years we have been subjected to a constant drumbeat of phony right-wing accusations of "liberal elitism," "intellectual snobbery" and "political correctness" as a way to generate division and resentment -- and consequent political support -- among those feeling displaced by economic and social change. It's a cheap political trick but surprisingly effective for those who don't care to see past their own noses.

If Trump was not such a monster, I might well have voted for him both times just to stick it to leftist elitists.

And that is the very essence of Trumpism, which is the predictable devolution from the Nixonian "Silent Majority" to the Proud Boys and QAnon.

I, too, was forced into voting for Joe Biden. He wasn't my first, second or even third choice among the Democrats -- and I don't even ordinarily vote for Democrats in general elections. But I did it as a way of acknowledging the existential threat to American democracy that Trump represents.

Yeah, that left wing hubris that got Hillabeast elected. Oh wait that didn't happen. You'd think it would have sent a message to the mothership, but it did not.

Four years ago I had asked you very politely to explain to me exactly what you thought was so horrible about Hillary Clinton, and you just waved me off. If anything, the Democrats' selection of Biden signaled their willingness to provide a candidate so bland, innocuous and non-threatening as to be the virtual anti-Hillary. But nothing will appease the tribalism of the Trumpist GOP.

ETA: Also, everything that Guin said while I was writing, editing, re-considering and re-wording this post.

[Guinevere]

Everything Sue said, except that I *am* a liberal and a Democrat. I'm also an American (and Marylander and a Massachusettsan and a Vermonter) and lots of other things, too. To paraphrase, I contain multitudes. Stop trying to boil that down into bossy, liberal, and elite.

[Sue U]

Everything Sue said, except that I *am* a liberal and a Democrat.

And still I won't hold that against you!

[Crackpot]

I don't think either of you are particularly the people Meade is talking about. (:cough: think rubato :cough:)

There is a messaging issue with mainstream Democrats have with talking at People instead of to (or as) the people. Republicans have done a pretty good job at setting a more familiar tone so have Bernie and AOC (that's why Republicans are so scared of them)

If you can't be relatable people are not going to like you if they don't like you they are less likely to trust you if they don't trust you they are not going to vote for you.

It might not be strictly logical but humans aren't a logical species.

[Big RR]

Guin--

I *am* a liberal

; I'm not quite sure what "liberal" means; e.g. the right has often called the Clintons "liberals" or "ultraliberals", and I wouldn't see them as either--more as pragmatists or, maybe, moderates. I think the right uses the term "liberal" to just designate the people they don't like. Again, the perception is far more important than the facts.

Sue--I generally don't call myself a liberal either; clearly I identify with the left, but I also have a strong tendency toward the defense of individual rights which could have me labelled a libertarian. IMHO, labels just don't make sense or communicate much.

[Sue U]

Guin--

I *am* a liberal

; I'm not quite sure what "liberal" means; e.g. the right has often called the Clintons "liberals" or "ultraliberals", and I wouldn't see them as either--more as pragmatists or, maybe, moderates. I think the right uses the term "liberal" to just designate the people they don't like. Again, the perception is far more important than the facts.

Sue--I generally don't call myself a liberal either; clearly I identify with the left, but I also have a strong tendency toward the defense of individual rights which could have me labelled a libertarian. IMHO, labels just don't make sense or communicate much.

Our self-Identification doesn't mean much if we allow others -- particularly adversaries -- to define out descriptors, and especially to use them as pejoratives. I identify myself politically as a socialist, and I find it incredibly grating to hear people who shoukd know better, let alone ignoramuses like Trump, call centrist or center-right Democrats like Biden, Harris and Clinton "radical leftist socialists." For fuck's sake, even Bernie Sanders is barely a "socialist," even though he calls himself a "democratic socialist." The constant abuse of the terminology renders it meaningless except as a dogwhistle for reactionaries and authoritarians to amp up a generalized fear in an uneducated public. In every corner of the industrialized world but the United States, socialism is a mainstream political movement with clearly defined principles and a role in government. Here, though, it's just a 1950s bogeyman.

[Crackpot]

Let’s not forget the Republicans have been expertly and effectively gaslighting the Dems for years

[Big RR]

Sad but true, Sue; and I think the same is true for "liberal".

[liberty]

Guin--

I *am* a liberal

; I'm not quite sure what "liberal" means; e.g. the right has often called the Clintons "liberals" or "ultraliberals", and I wouldn't see them as either--more as pragmatists or, maybe, moderates. I think the right uses the term "liberal" to just designate the people they don't like. Again, the perception is far more important than the facts.

Sue--I generally don't call myself a liberal either; clearly I identify with the left, but I also have a strong tendency toward the defense of individual rights which could have me labelled a libertarian. IMHO, labels just don't make sense or communicate much.

The constant abuse of the terminology renders it meaningless except as a dogwhistle for reactionaries and authoritarians to amp up a generalized fear in an uneducated public. I

Reactionaries aren’t that those people that don’t want to be tortured to death in your reeducation camps. Are you a socialist or a just communist? Do you support what the Chinese Communist are doing in Western China?

[TPFKA@W]

As a right leaning something or another I have to say that I am sorry Bernie didn’t get the nomination. I probably would have been persuaded to vote for him.