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America's Imperial Moment

Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:25 pm
by Gob
1 August 2010 Last updated at 09:10 GMT

Assessing America's 'imperial adventure' in Iraq

By John Simpson BBC World Affairs Editor, Baghdad

US soldiers pack equipment into an aircraft as they prepare to leave Iraq, 27 August 2010 US troops have been packing up as their combat operation in Iraq officially ends

"This," a leading American supporter of President George W Bush wrote in a British newspaper back in February 2003, just before the invasion of Iraq, "is our imperial moment".

He went on to argue that the British had no right to criticise America for doing what they themselves had done so enthusiastically a century before.

But America's imperial moment did not last long. And now, seven years later, the US is criticised for just about everything that happens here.

Opinion is evenly divided between those who are glad to see the Americans go, and those who criticise them for leaving too soon and potentially laying Iraq open to fresh sectarian violence.

It is a pattern that every occupying power becomes used to. America, it seems, cannot do anything right - not even getting out.

Most of the arguments in favour of invading back in 2003 have come to nothing.

Many Iraqis welcomed the overthrow of Saddam Hussein - 50% regarded the invasion as a liberation, according to a BBC poll taken in 2004, while 50% regarded it as an occupation - but nowadays it is hard to find anyone who sees America as Iraq's friend and mentor.

Nor has the overthrow of Saddam Hussein led to a general domino effect towards democracy throughout the Middle East.

On the contrary, America's position in the Middle East has been visibly eroded.

Some of the things done by the American authorities in Iraq, based in the Green Zone in Baghdad, were sober, positive and practical.

Some have become a burden, for instance the constitution the Americans wished on Iraq, which makes it fiendishly hard to create a decent effective government.

And because the Green Zone administration was thrown together in a huge hurry back in 2002-03, overseen by former Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld - a man with no interest in nation-building - some of what was done involved grotesque levels of corruption and mismanagement.

A boy cheers in front of a statue of Saddam Hussein that was set on fire on 12 April 2010 The toppling of Saddam Hussein failed to trigger any domino effect in the Middle East

Mr Rumsfeld was sent a careful, conscientious 900-page report by the state department containing detailed plans for the post-invasion period. He reportedly dumped it, unopened, straight into his waste-paper basket.

Iraqis, and some Americans, pile a good deal of the blame for what happened during this period on to Mr Rumsfeld's ally Paul Bremer, the temperamental pro-consul who often seemed unaware of what was going on right under his nose.

Former Vice-President Dick Cheney, when asked by the Saudi foreign minister why the US insisted on going ahead with the invasion, answered: "Because it's do-able."

But the problem began even higher up.

A respected Iraqi dissident, who later became vice-president, has described how shocked he was to find, a few weeks before the invasion, that President Bush seemed wholly unaware that Muslims in Iraq were divided between Shia and Sunni Islam.

American generals seemed to despair of finding a solution to the growing insurgency.


The US forces, contrary to all the basic rules of counter-insurgency, allowed the enemy to attack "Route Irish", the main road between Baghdad airport and the Green Zone, as and when it chose.

British soldiers, used to Northern Ireland, pointed out again and again that occasional nervous sorties in armoured vehicles were not the same as taking control of it.

Their American counterparts took no notice, and the situation grew worse.

It took an expert in counter-terrorism, Gen David Petraeus, to turn the situation around. Like most successful generals, he had luck on his side.

Gen Petraeus understood that insurgencies have a specific life-span, and he was fortunate enough to arrive in Baghdad at the time when the Iraqi insurgency was starting to wind down.

Sunni Muslims were increasingly sick of the violence that Sunni extremists were causing, and he encouraged the growth of Awakening Councils which enabled moderate Sunnis to rise up and deal with both Baathists and supporters of al-Qaeda.

The supply of people willing to become suicide bombers began to dwindle.

Gen Petraeus's tactics turned the tide. At the height of the violence something like 100 people were dying each day across the country from bombings and shootings.

Now the number killed in political violence has dropped to about 10 a day - unacceptable in a more peaceable society, but a great relief here.

Yet many Iraqis fear that with the Americans no longer here in force, and the Iraqi army and police still lacking sufficient training, the violent extremists on both the Sunni and the Shia sides could start fighting again.

Whatever happens here for the next decade, the Americans will get the blame - unless of course Iraq becomes peaceful and prosperous, in which case no-one will thank them.

That is the usual fate of an occupying force.

Vast numbers of people have died, the overwhelming majority of them Iraqi.

Unthinkably large amounts of money have been spent here, and yet Iraq has slipped far down the world's rich list.

Has the United States benefited? It is hard to see how.

As the British learned in the Boer War, and Russia learned by invading Afghanistan, great military powers run big risks by putting their strength to the test against weak-seeming opponents.

America seems to have shrunk as a direct result of its imperial adventure in Iraq.

It will have to work very hard to persuade the rest of the world that it is strong again.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11135500

Re: America's Imperial Moment

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:02 pm
by Lord Jim
As I've said a number of times before, the fundamental mistake that was made here was in failing to go in with sufficient forces to secure the country from the outset....

In trying to do this war initially on the cheap, Rumsfeld and Co. expanded the costs...both in human lives and and treasure...geometrically....

Re: America's Imperial Moment

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:03 pm
by Big RR
Killjoys...we won. It's Mission Accomplsihed all over again. The world is safe for democracy and all the WMDs have been destroyed. And the Iraqis now have the highest standard of living of any oild rich country in the middle east. Don't start confusing the issue--I'll just do what Obama does and put my fingers in my ears and hum loudly of anyone says otherwise. After all, we're only leaving 50,000 non combat (but heavily armed) troops behind; we've withdrawn and accomplished our mission. Lewis Carroll would be proud.

Also, to settle an old promise, I will say i am pleased that the surge has functioned to lower the violence to a level good enough for "those people", a level good enough so that we can once again claim we acomplished our mission. Will the "peace" continue to be ensured by the presence of our armed, non combat roops. Let's just wait and see. but don't hold your breath.

Re: America's Imperial Moment

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:11 pm
by Crackpot

Re: America's Imperial Moment

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:22 pm
by Scooter
Lord Jim wrote:As I've said a number of times before, the fundamental mistake that was made here was in failing to go in with sufficient forces to secure the country from the outset....
The fundamental mistake, if one could call it that, was launching the war in the first place. A wholly unnecessary conflict which achieved nothing except to destabilize the region, facilitate the growth of terrorist networks and take the eye off the ball in Afghanistan.

Re: America's Imperial Moment

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:16 pm
by Big RR
Lord Jim wrote:As I've said a number of times before, the fundamental mistake that was made here was in failing to go in with sufficient forces to secure the country from the outset....

In trying to do this war initially on the cheap, Rumsfeld and Co. expanded the costs...both in human lives and and treasure...geometrically....
To achieve what Jim; the destruction of the nonexistent stockples of WMDs?

I have to agree with Scooter here.

Re: America's Imperial Moment

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:14 pm
by Gob
Elect monkeys, end up with peanuts.
ImageImage

Re: America's Imperial Moment

Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 9:14 pm
by rubato
Lord Jim wrote:As I've said a number of times before, the fundamental mistake that was made here was in failing to go in with sufficient forces to secure the country from the outset....

In trying to do this war initially on the cheap, Rumsfeld and Co. expanded the costs...both in human lives and and treasure...geometrically....
For the parts of the world who care about the truth the fundamental mistakes were lying about WMD, and lying about whether the Iraqi people wanted us there.

If a country which, on the whole, is shriekingly NOT asking to be 'liberated', is invaded it is not surprising that they resent and hate the invaders more than they hate anyone else.

It was stupid. Dumb. Otiose. Shockingly dimwitted. Foolish. Asinine. Beneath the consideration of anyone brighter than a 5th grader.

Only Republicans are this stupid.

yrs,
rubato

Re: America's Imperial Moment

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 12:16 am
by loCAtek
What!? :o Let's not get hyperbolically melodramatic;

The Iraqis did not want Saddam in power; he seized it against the wishes of the people;
Worldview: My first day without Saddam
Worry for the future trumped my first taste of freedom. The scars of what Saddam left behind persist.

By Razzaq Al-Saiedi — Special to GlobalPost
Published: April 9, 2010 12:26 ET in Worldview



Saddam was not just a dictator ruling an authoritarian regime. Under his reign, the character and meaning of Iraqi life changed. He confiscated Iraq’s history, civilization and substance. His image and shadow invaded all spaces, even our living rooms. The state that was built by Saddam when he seized power in 1968, the year I was born, was based on two pillars: fear and servility. The people, the state, and material resources were used for more than three decades to serve one man and achieve his brutal goals.

Re: America's Imperial Moment

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:32 am
by Gob
The United States supported Iraq during the Iran–Iraq War as a counterbalance to post-revolutionary Iran. This support included several billion dollars worth of economic aid, the sale of dual-use technology, non-U.S. origin weaponry, military intelligence, Special Operations training, and direct involvement in warfare against Iran.

Support from the U.S. for Iraq was not a secret and was frequently discussed in open session of the Senate and House of Representatives, although the public and news media paid little attention. On June 9, 1992, Ted Koppel reported on ABC's Nightline, "It is becoming increasingly clear that George Bush, operating largely behind the scenes throughout the 1980s, initiated and supported much of the financing, intelligence, and military help that built Saddam's Iraq into" the power it became", and "Reagan/Bush administrations permitted—and frequently encouraged—the flow of money, agricultural credits, dual-use technology, chemicals, and weapons to Iraq.

Re: America's Imperial Moment

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:29 am
by loCAtek
To counter the Ayatollah Khomeini, who took power in Iran in 1979.

During that time he also refined his theory of velayat-e faqih ("government of the jurist"), in which the Shi'ite clergy — traditionally politically quiescent in Iran — would govern the state. Iranian unrest increased until the shah fled in 1979; Khomeini returned shortly thereafter and was eventually named Iran's political and religious leader (rahbar). He ruled over a system in which the clergy dominated the government, and his foreign policies were both anti-Western and anticommunist. During the first year of his leadership, Iranian militants seized the U.S. embassy in Tehran — greatly exacerbating tensions with the U.S. — and the devastating Iran-Iraq War (1980 – 88) began.

Re: America's Imperial Moment

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:22 pm
by Gob
Yes, and?

Re: America's Imperial Moment

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:39 pm
by loCAtek
...and the facts don't support the hyperbolic melodrama.

Re: America's Imperial Moment

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:44 pm
by Gob
What "facts"? What "hyperbolic melodrama"?

Re: America's Imperial Moment

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:55 pm
by Lord Jim
Yes, and?
I've never understood the "argument" on this...

This curious idea that because we "tilted" towards Iraq in the Iraq-Iran war in the 80's (for very good reasons; to prevent Khomeini's Iran from gaining dominance in the region) that this somehow translates into making our taking down Saddam's regime in 2003 "illegitimate"....

If anything, it should seem that would give us an even greater obligation to get rid of him....

But laying that aside, it strikes me as a really silly non argument....

It would be like saying "Well, since we supplied the Russians with material to fight the Germans in WW II , it was somehow wrong/hypocritical/unjustified, etc., for us to oppose them and work for their defeat in the Cold War...."

I'm sorry, that's just the way world history unfolds....

Decisions are made about who to support or oppose based on the circumstances of that particular situation, at that particular time...

And in another situation, at a different time, with different factors involved, different decisions are made...

That's just how geo-politics works...

There's nothing about making a decision in one's national self interest at one point in time under one set of circumstances, that makes reaching a different decision at another point in time under a different set of circumstances in any way inherently questionable or invalid.

If we were going to employ that sort of logic, then we should never have supported Great Britain in WW I or WW II, since before that, they burned our Capitol to the ground.... 8-)

Re: America's Imperial Moment

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:56 pm
by loCAtek
ThX Jim, to put it simply;


The facts are:

"The Iraqis did not want Saddam in power; he seized it against the wishes of the people."

The hyperbolic melodrama is:

"lying about whether the Iraqi people wanted us there"

...that the US created the Saddam regime out of ether.

Re: America's Imperial Moment

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:15 pm
by Gob
The fact is that knowing the Iraqi people did not want Saddam in power the US supported him.

Your use of the term hyperbolic melodrama, is just hyperbolic melodrama, it would be be better for your argument not to make such hyperbolic melodramatic claims.

Re: America's Imperial Moment

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:27 pm
by loCAtek
The US also did not want the Ayatollah Khomeini in power; the secular vs. the theocracy.
Which would you prefer?

I did not use hyperbolic melodrama, just pointed out its fallacy out of context.

Re: America's Imperial Moment

Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 4:04 pm
by Big RR
I don't recall the Ayatollah gassing the Kurds, killing untold numbers of women and children.

Re: America's Imperial Moment

Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:03 pm
by Sue U
The Islamic Republic, for all its many (many many many) faults, has a better claim to being a democratically-responsive representiative government than Saddam Hussein's Iraq could ever pretend to.

There were legitimate reasons to have supported either side in the Iran-Iraq war -- a war very clearly started by Iraqi aggression, by the way. The U.S. "tilt" toward Iraq enabled a corrupt, fragile and brutal dictatorship to prosecute a murderous campaign against a neighbor state for eight years, with no perceptible benefit to the U.S. or to the people of either Iraq or Iran.

Of course, it also provided what became the most ironic photo op of our generation:

Image

And that's worth something.