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How much hatred must your heart bear to do this to a child?

Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:28 pm
by Scooter
How utterly soulless, vindictive and just plain blackheartedly EVIL does one have to be in order to issue such a spiteful ruling:
Jason Hanna and Joe Riggs are the proud fathers of Lucas and Ethan, who were born in April, after they'd connected with a surrogate mom, CharLynn.

Each of the men is a biological father to one of the babies. But, because Texas has a ban on gay marriage (it was ruled unconstitutional by a federal judge last February, but the decision was stayed pending appeal), and because a judge can use his or her own discretion in these cases, neither of the men is currently on the birth certificates of either of the boys, nor have they been able to co-adopt each other’s biological child.

Only the surrogate mother — who has no biological relationship to the boys, since embryos were transferred to her — is on the birth certificates. In essence, the men are not legally defined as the parents of their own children. And though they have DNA tests for proof, they’re worried, particularly if something were to happen to one of them while the other still has not been able to co-adopt the other’s biological child.

“As of right now in Texas two men cannot be on the birth certificate,” Jason Hanna explained in an interview with me on SiriusXM Progress. “So our attorney followed the letter of the law. We petitioned the court. We had DNA testing there [in court] and petitioned the judge to ultimately remove the surrogate mother from the birth certificate, who has no biological ties to the boys. We would like each biological dad to be placed on the birth certificate of our own son, and then ultimately proceed to the second-parent adoption. The entire petition was denied.”

Jason Hanna and Joe Riggs met four years ago and knew they wanted to be together and raise children, so they saved their money, knowing it would be a costly process. They married last July in Washington DC, where gay marriage is legal, and then went back to Dallas to celebrate their wedding with family and friends in August. They found a surrogate mom, and this past April the twins were born.

“We were sworn in and ultimately the judge was saying that with the information she had in front of her, under Texas law she couldn’t grant it,” Riggs said of their appearance in court last week. “I was shocked. We had a ton of questions as we walked away from that courtroom.”

It was particularly jarring to Hanna and Riggs because other gay couples in Texas, including friends of theirs, have successfully completed this process. The couple’s lawyer has offered them several options on bringing the petition back, changing the paperwork and the process. But there’s no question that if their marriage was legally recognized they would not be having this problem at all.
We have been told ad nauseam that opposition to same-sex marriage and same-sex two-parent adoptions is out of concern for the welfare of children. Well someone needs to explain to me what these two children are being protected from, and how throwing them into this legal limbo accomplishes that. Because all I can see is a poisonously bigoted judge who is putting her own beliefs above the needs of the children whose welfare she is sworn to protect. And anybody who shows such uttter contempt for the children whose needs she is supposed to be looking out for, just because of the gender combination of their parents, should be thrown not only out of her office, but under a train.

Re: How much hatred must your heart bear to do this to a chi

Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:42 pm
by TPFKA@W
Got an email addy? I am in the mood to write something nasty to someone about this.

Re: How much hatred must your heart bear to do this to a chi

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:08 am
by Long Run
It is a ridiculous situation, but I am not convinced the judge is the one to blame (especially when one account states that the couple's lawyer thinks the petition simply needs to be reworded and resubmitted). Looks more like the culprit is the jumbled state of the law, which will hopefully be sorted out before too long. Fortunately, in the meantime, the child has two loving parents even while the birth certificate gets resolved.

Re: How much hatred must your heart bear to do this to a chi

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:40 am
by Scooter
The judge may have been able to piece together some sort of legal justification for refusing the reciprocal adoptions. But there can be no earthly reason to refuse naming the children's respective biological fathers on their birth certificates, when they had DNA results in hand. That can only be attributed to pure vindictiveness, a case of a judge making things difficult because she can.

Re: How much hatred must your heart bear to do this to a chi

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:41 am
by Scooter
TPFKA@W wrote:Got an email addy? I am in the mood to write something nasty to someone about this.
All I have is the story I linked to. The author's email is there, perhaps he would know to whom nasty messages could be directed.

Re: How much hatred must your heart bear to do this to a chi

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:56 pm
by TPFKA@W
I gleaned from other articles that the same thing has been granted to other gay couples in the same area and it appears the judge is just being a bitch.

Re: How much hatred must your heart bear to do this to a chi

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:59 pm
by Guinevere
They should move to Vermont -- the Supreme Court justice I clerked for wrote the first legal opinion in the country giving parental rights over adopted children to non-married gay couples, in 1993.

Re: How much hatred must your heart bear to do this to a chi

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:25 pm
by Scooter
TPFKA@W wrote:the judge is just being a bitch
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Re: How much hatred must your heart bear to do this to a chi

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:47 pm
by Big RR
Scooter wrote:The judge may have been able to piece together some sort of legal justification for refusing the reciprocal adoptions. But there can be no earthly reason to refuse naming the children's respective biological fathers on their birth certificates, when they had DNA results in hand. That can only be attributed to pure vindictiveness, a case of a judge making things difficult because she can.
Except if Texas does not recognize surrogacy contracts, in which case the "father" would be recognized to be the same as an egg or sperm donor, who usually do not and cannot acquire parental rights.

Many states, including some of the more "enlightened" ones (like NJ after the Baby M case) do not enforce surrogacy contracts, seeing them as akin to baby selling. Stupid? Pretty much so IMHO, but it's what happens when the law doesn't keep up with the technology. So we get the silly result that the surrogate, with no genetic ties to the children, is seen as the parent while the biological fathers are not. This is an area that is going to need to be addressed as well in the future, because the technology is not going to go away, nor are people who want to become parents but are biologically incapable of doing so.

Re: How much hatred must your heart bear to do this to a chi

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:01 pm
by Big RR
Scooter wrote:The judge may have been able to piece together some sort of legal justification for refusing the reciprocal adoptions. But there can be no earthly reason to refuse naming the children's respective biological fathers on their birth certificates, when they had DNA results in hand. That can only be attributed to pure vindictiveness, a case of a judge making things difficult because she can.
Except if Texas does not recognize surrogacy contracts, in which case the "father" would be recognized to be the same as an egg or sperm donor, who usually do not and cannot acquire parental rights.

Many states, including some of the more "enlightened" ones (like NJ after the Baby M case) do not enforce surrogacy contracts, seeing them as akin to baby selling. Stupid? Pretty much so IMHO, but it's what happens when the law doesn't keep up with the technology. So we get the silly result that the surrogate, with no genetic ties to the children, is seen as the parent while the biological fathers are not. This is an area that is going to need to be addressed as well in the future, because the technology is not going to go away, nor are people who want to become parents but are biologically incapable of doing so.

Re: How much hatred must your heart bear to do this to a chi

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:39 pm
by Scooter
It would appear that Texas will enforce what they call "gestational agreements", but only if the intended parents are married:
Sec. 160.754. GESTATIONAL AGREEMENT AUTHORIZED. (a) A prospective gestational mother, her husband if she is married, each donor, and each intended parent may enter into a written agreement providing that:
(1) the prospective gestational mother agrees to pregnancy by means of assisted reproduction;
(2) the prospective gestational mother, her husband if she is married, and each donor other than the intended parents, if applicable, relinquish all parental rights and duties with respect to a child conceived through assisted reproduction;
(3) the intended parents will be the parents of the child; and
(4) the gestational mother and each intended parent agree to exchange throughout the period covered by the agreement all relevant information regarding the health of the gestational mother and each intended parent.
(b) The intended parents must be married to each other. Each intended parent must be a party to the gestational agreement.
(c) The gestational agreement must require that the eggs used in the assisted reproduction procedure be retrieved from an intended parent or a donor. The gestational mother's eggs may not be used in the assisted reproduction procedure.
(d) The gestational agreement must state that the physician who will perform the assisted reproduction procedure as provided by the agreement has informed the parties to the agreement of:
(1) the rate of successful conceptions and births attributable to the procedure, including the most recent published outcome statistics of the procedure at the facility at which it will be performed;
(2) the potential for and risks associated with the implantation of multiple embryos and consequent multiple births resulting from the procedure;
(3) the nature of and expenses related to the procedure;
(4) the health risks associated with, as applicable, fertility drugs used in the procedure, egg retrieval procedures, and egg or embryo transfer procedures; and
(5) reasonably foreseeable psychological effects resulting from the procedure.
(e) The parties to a gestational agreement must enter into the agreement before the 14th day preceding the date the transfer of eggs, sperm, or embryos to the gestational mother occurs for the purpose of conception or implantation.
(f) A gestational agreement does not apply to the birth of a child conceived by means of sexual intercourse.
(g) A gestational agreement may not limit the right of the gestational mother to make decisions to safeguard her health or the health of an embryo.
Texas Family Code, Chapter 160

So their surrogacy agreement would not be valid because the intended parents cannot be legally married in Texas. But the Code also provides for determining parentage where there is assisted reproduction, which this clearly was:
Sec. 160.701. SCOPE OF SUBCHAPTER. This subchapter applies only to a child conceived by means of assisted reproduction.

Added by Acts 2001, 77th Leg., ch. 821, Sec. 1.01, eff. June 14, 2001.


Sec. 160.702. PARENTAL STATUS OF DONOR. A donor is not a parent of a child conceived by means of assisted reproduction.

Added by Acts 2001, 77th Leg., ch. 821, Sec. 1.01, eff. June 14, 2001.


Sec. 160.703. HUSBAND'S PATERNITY OF CHILD OF ASSISTED REPRODUCTION. If a husband provides sperm for or consents to assisted reproduction by his wife as provided by Section 160.704, he is the father of a resulting child.

Added by Acts 2001, 77th Leg., ch. 821, Sec. 1.01, eff. June 14, 2001.


Sec. 160.7031. UNMARRIED MAN'S PATERNITY OF CHILD OF ASSISTED REPRODUCTION. (a) If an unmarried man, with the intent to be the father of a resulting child, provides sperm to a licensed physician and consents to the use of that sperm for assisted reproduction by an unmarried woman, he is the father of a resulting child.
(b) Consent by an unmarried man who intends to be the father of a resulting child in accordance with this section must be in a record signed by the man and the unmarried woman and kept by a licensed physician.


Added by Acts 2007, 80th Leg., R.S., Ch. 972 (S.B. 228), Sec. 40, eff. September 1, 2007.
It seems perverse to me, when all of the potential parties (egg donor, surrogate, biological father) are presumably in agreement as to the intent of the arrangement, to have treated the biological fathers as donors rather than as the intended parents of their respective biological children.. Even if the surrogacy provisions of the agreement between them were voided because the intended parents were not married, surely the clauses stating that the biological fathers intended to act as parents could have been saved to constitute the necessary "record" required under this section. I agree with @W, the judge was being a bitch.

Re: How much hatred must your heart bear to do this to a chi

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:04 pm
by Sue U
Scooter wrote:Even if the surrogacy provisions of the agreement between them were voided because the intended parents were not married,
But clearly, they were married:
They married last July in Washington DC, where gay marriage is legal, and then went back to Dallas
There is nothing in the Gestational Agreement statute that requires the marriage to have been performed under the laws of Texas.

Third vote here for judge is being a bitch.

Re: How much hatred must your heart bear to do this to a chi

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:07 pm
by TPFKA@W
My work friend Marco and his partner adopted/acquired (not sure of the actual arrangement but I believe the child is biologically Marco's but I do know a surrogate was involved) and I am pretty sure they did not have to go through a bunch of crap other than the usual to get this done. They are a beautiful family and Marco is the best father in the world. If I could trade my redneck parents and have had Marco for a Dad I am sure my life would have been better in the long run. You turn kids loose with hetero parents who abuse/neglect the crap out of them and then give decent gay couples the run around. This just really pisses me off.

Re: How much hatred must your heart bear to do this to a chi

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:50 pm
by Big RR
Sue--but Texas does not recognize those marriages as valid in the state of Texas, so they were not married in the eyes of the state. I presume even though they were married in DC, they could not claim many other benefits of marriage under Texas law as well. Just as previous states were permitted to ignore interracial marriages under their laws, Texas can ignore a same sex one. The judge may well be as ass here, but the laws are worse.

Scooter--while I share your distaste of the result, surrogacy and assisted reproduction are two different things; assisted reproduction involves the use of technology to conceive a child and place it within the uterus of the mother (things like IVF), surrogacy involves bringing another party (the surrogate who carries the child) into the equation, which makes it something very different. The surrogacy law you quoted does not have the language of intent of the father.

The law sucks here, and anyone who really thinks that opponents of gay marriage are looking out for the children need only look here to see the idiocy of that statement. Only when the states are required to accept gay marriage the same way they were forced to with interracial marriage (by court decree under the US constitution) will the BS end, but don't expect that anytime soon.

Re: How much hatred must your heart bear to do this to a chi

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:20 pm
by Scooter
Big RR wrote:surrogacy and assisted reproduction are two different things; assisted reproduction involves the use of technology to conceive a child and place it within the uterus of the mother (things like IVF), surrogacy involves bringing another party (the surrogate who carries the child) into the equation, which makes it something very different. The surrogacy law you quoted does not have the language of intent of the father.
But in the law, "gestational agreements" are just a subset of "assisted reproduction" - note the references to "assisted reproduction" throughout the sections devoted to "gestational agreements". If the law does not recognize the validity of the "gestational agreement", then under what category would the conception and birth of these children fall, if not under the larger umbrella of "assisted reproduction"? Indeed, if it is not "assisted reproduction", then where would be the authority for defining the biological father as a donor and denying him parental rights? Unless these children were born into some legal vacuum in which they supposedly have no mother or father.

As to when states will be forced to recognize SSM, the SCOTUS is going to have to face up to that question pretty soon, because the appeals courts are now getting more and more of them on their dockets (including from Texas).

Re: How much hatred must your heart bear to do this to a chi

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:33 pm
by Big RR
Sue--I read the law a little differently; gestational agreements include an assisted reproduction procedure as part of them, as normal sexual intercourse to achieve conception does not apply. However, gestational agreements are something otherwise very different because there are a number of parties who have an interest in them, and because the surrogate performs a service that is different from any others included within assisted reproduction procedures. However, it is because an assisted reproduction procedure is part of the process that many of the questions you raise can be answered the way they apparently were by the court. The difference of the gestational agreement arises from the surrogate, which leads to the ludicrous decision that the person having no genetic connection to the child(ren), and having no interest in becoming apparent can be labeled one. It is this right that he surrogacy contract is designed to permit her to waive, and assign parentage only to a married couple--with no married couple present, the right resides only in her.


As for the question of whether same sex marriage is a right that must be recognized by all states, I exect the supreme court to continue to duck it, leaving us with the current hodgepodge for some time to come.

Re: How much hatred must your heart bear to do this to a chi

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:43 pm
by Gob
Who, gay or straight, would want to bring up a child in Texas?

Re: How much hatred must your heart bear to do this to a chi

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 11:43 pm
by Econoline
Gob wrote:Who, gay or straight, would want to bring up a child in Texas?
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Re: How much hatred must your heart bear to do this to a chi

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:23 am
by BoSoxGal
:funee:

The judge, to the extent that she has discretion to establish the parentage of these baby boys and is refusing to do it, doesn't deserve the robe.

But then, so many of them don't.

Re: How much hatred must your heart bear to do this to a chi

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:05 pm
by Guinevere
Gob wrote:Who, gay or straight, would want to bring up a child in Texas?
People like this:

A mother is in jail after she allegedly drove home from a neighborhood pool with six children riding on top of her car because she didn't want their wet swimsuits to ruin her upholstery.

Kisha Young, 39, of Crowley, Texas was arrested after having the children - four of which were hers and two of which were a friend's - ride on the roof and the trunk of her Chevy Malibu for the short ride back home after swimming at the local pool, reports CBS DFW.

Witnesses in the neighborhood were astonished to see Young driving with the kids - ages eight to 14 - on the outside of the vehicle, and were even more shocked when four of the children were flung from the car after Young took a sharp turn. As the children laid injured in the street, Young kept on driving, apparently unaware that the kids had fallen off the vehicle
Read more: http://www.wcvb.com/national/cops-drunk ... z35ChUM84B