The United Police States of America

[liberty]

At a minimum I want a federal protocol universally followed that requires thorough psychological pre-screening and at bare minimum 2 years full time education AND skills training on top of it. In depth training in criminology including extensive deescalation tools via exposure to the wide range of human condition - race, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, neuro atypical, mental health conditions, DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, etc. And instilling a strong attitude of treating ‘perpetrators’ with respect - they are citizens too, and PRESUMED INNOCENT until convicted.

I don’t have any problem with that, but I don’t think it is a total fix. Some of our most difficult problems are rooted in culture; we have people that are going to hate and kills cops no matter how well they behave; naturally, the cops are going try to protect themselves, all creatures do.

[Bicycle Bill]

The Onion hasn't gone out of business...not quite yet, anyway:

Do You Know Why I’m Pulling You Over, Being Wildly Aggressive, And Charging You With Assault Today, Sir?

Never once, in any of my interactions with law enforcement (and I've had more than just a couple), has it gone down anything at all like this batch of drivel.  Of course, I also kept a cool head and maintained a civil, calm demeanor, so maybe the officer realized that there was no way I could be considered a threat, no matter how many ways he tried to bend that pretzel.

Now, I know the Onion is an organ of satire, but doesn't satire supposedly start with a basic truth which is then exaggerated or parodied?  Where's the truth here?

-"BB"-

[Scooter]

Texas deputies, including those who killed Javier Ambler, reportedly got steakhouse gift cards for using force

Williamson County, Texas, Sheriff’s Office leaders rewarded deputies who used force on the job with steakhouse gift cards, according to two former employees, one of whom made the admission to Texas Rangers investigating the agency’s aggressive tactics.

Among the deputies who received gift cards to places such as Logan’s Roadhouse were J.J. Johnson and Zach Camden, the officers involved in the March 2019 death of Javier Ambler. The Black 40-year-old father was Tased four times as he shouted that he had a heart condition and could not breathe.

In a recorded interview with Texas Rangers, former Deputy Christopher Pisa said Cmdr. Steve Deaton awarded deputies he considered “WilCo badass.”

“They had the intention that we were all ‘WilCo badass’ and if you went out there and did your job, and you had to use force on somebody and he agreed with it, then you would get a gift card,” Pisa said in an audio recording obtained by the Austin American-Statesman, which is part of the USA TODAY Network.

Former Sgt. Troy Brogden, who resigned from the department last year, corroborated Pisa’s claim and told the Statesman that Deaton gave the cards “for what he considered good uses of force.”

Brogden worked for the agency for 20 years, including as a supervisor overseeing major cases in the criminal investigations division, before resigning last fall.

“He would talk about it in groups, including supervisors meetings and classes,” Brogden said. “I was like, ‘What the hell?’”

The revelation that top supervisors allegedly rewarded use of force provides a stunning insight into the suburban Austin department that seems to encourage violence, at least two law-enforcement experts said.

“That makes no sense to me at all,” said Jeff Noble, a retired deputy chief with the Irvine, Calif., police department and a national policing expert. “The incentive is, ‘Let’s go out and use more force so we can get more gift cards.’ The fear is that you are incentivizing bad behavior.”

The agency’s alleged system of rewarding force is the latest in a string of questionable practices reported by the American-Statesman in recent months. The department has also hired multiple deputies with troubled histories, engaged in high-speed vehicle pursuits for minor traffic violations and used aggressive tactics in several incidents that are now under investigation by the Texas Rangers and the Williamson County district attorney.

Increased questions about the agency’s use of force coincided with its participation in the reality show “Live PD” much of last year. Producers canceled “Live PD” in June, two days after the Statesman revealed details of Ambler’s death and that the show had destroyed footage of the incident.

Sheriff Robert Chody said in a statement: “Literally, the only use of cards I recall specifically was for a deputy who was able to recover some excellent fingerprints that ended up helping an investigation resulting in a warrant for that suspect and for a capture of a burglary suspect.”

“I have no idea what ‘good use of force’ means,” he wrote.

Texas Rangers and the Williamson County District Attorney’s Office are investigating at least five use-of-force incidents involving Williamson County deputies, including a violent arrest that was broadcast on “Live PD” and a deputy’s attack on a 20-year-old domestic violence victim.

One of the incidents under investigation is an April 2019 traffic stop Pisa conducted in which he used force on an African-American woman. Officials have not released details of the incident, which triggered a criminal investigation and prompted Pisa’s resignation.

Rangers interviewed Pisa six months after he resigned.

In an audio recording of that interview, provided to the Statesman by Pisa’s lawyer, the deputy said after the April incident he expected to receive a gift card from his superiors.

Pisa said the department’s practice of handing out gift cards in certain use-of-force cases was “common knowledge” and that Deaton was responsible for reviewing incidents and rewarding the cards.

“It was something everybody knew,” Pisa said. “He has even said it to people in meetings.”

“You are saying that, correct me if I am mistaken, that Cmdr. Deaton, that it is known that Cmdr. Deaton gives out gift cards to steakhouses or wherever to people for using force?” the Ranger asked again.

“A good use of force,” Pisa responded.

Pisa did not link the gift cards to Ambler’s case, and the Ranger did not ask for which incident he believed Johnson and Camden were rewarded.

Attorneys for the two deputies, who remain on the force, declined to comment about whether they received gift cards or for what purpose.

Deaton resigned in September 2019, months after social media posts of his surfaced with objectionable images showing dolls depicting actions, such as rape and kidnapping and the mutilation of a Black football player.

Two national law enforcement experts told the Statesman that they were alarmed by reports that the department rewarded force with gift cards.

Noble said if the cards weren’t a reward for using force, the department erred by not making clear the purpose or resolving any confusion.

“These officers didn’t create this myth on their own, so it is tied to something,” he said.

Timothy T. Williams, a retired senior detective supervisor for the Los Angeles Police Department, said that public service and a desire to help others should be adequate incentives for law enforcement.

“That is your mission,” he said. “You are not there as hunters. You are there to prevent crime. That is your incentive.”

It is unclear whether Rangers further investigated Pisa’s disclosure. It is also unclear who paid for the gift cards.

Williamson County District Attorney Shawn Dick, who is investigating the use-of-force cases and potential evidence tampering charges against the agency, declined to comment because of ongoing investigations.

Pisa’s attorney, Robert McCabe, said he was shocked by what his client told the Ranger during the interview.

“I think it absolutely happened, and I think it can easily be seen as ‘attaway to go,’ like rewarding using force,” McCabe said.

[ex-khobar Andy]

Yes I used to have a stock of gift cards for excellent work. From time to time I'd give one for some 'beyond the call of duty' stuff like coming in at 2AM for an emergency like a fish kill which had to be investigated. It was all part of the job so no extra pay, and most employees were exempt so no OT.

But I had to report them to payroll so they could include them in the pay for tax purposes. That was the law. I probably forgot sometimes.

[MGMcAnick]

At a minimum I want a federal protocol universally followed that requires thorough psychological pre-screening

I have a friend of many years who used to have a job working for the local company that administered lengthy (multiple guess) tests to determine if an individual would make a good police officer. He said that there is a very fine line between a person who'd be a good cop and one who would be an "exemplary" bad guy. That would make the selection of good cops difficult at best.

That said, I still think the idea of such testing is a good one.

[Econoline]

He said that there is a very fine line between a person who'd be a good cop and one who would be an "exemplary" bad guy.

[Jarlaxle]

Like Zip Connolly and Paul Rico?

[BoSoxGal]

Good story here:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... uiser.html

Also here:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... abama.html

And here:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... rrest.html

Just a few rotten apples. Giving off a whole bunch of spoiling ethylene gas.

[BoSoxGal]

This seemed like a good place to post this story, and resurrect the unchanged reality of policing in the USA. So much culture war has been happening over this issue, but police violence has increased rather than reduced.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... -speak-out

[Bicycle Bill]

This seemed like a good place to post this story, and resurrect the unchanged reality of policing in the USA. So much culture war has been happening over this issue, but police violence has increased rather than reduced.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... -speak-out

Sorry, lady.  But anyone who is involved in civil disobedience, whatever the reason, is taking a bit of a risk.  That press card and your camera is not a magical force-field generator, so if you get your ass in the middle of a pitched battle, you're taking a risk... the same sort of risks Ernie Pyle took during WWII, risks that finally jumped up and sent him home in a box.

I note this dateline was the Twin Cities.  During the 'unpleasantness' that followed the death of George Floyd, several cities experienced mindless violence, arson, and looting.  In Minneapolis itself, several blocks of Lake Street and the surrounding area went up in flames, while a Target store almost a mile away was looted.  Tell me how doing something like that was supposed to bring 'justice' on behalf of George Floyd?  It ain't ... this was just a case of animals running wild and taking advantage of whatever excuse they could find to go on a lawless rampage of vandalism, arson, and theft.

It's the same as what happened at the US Capital in January 2021.  Protesting?   OK.  Armed assault resulting in forcible entry to the seat of government, injury, and death of others in an attempt to thwart the established political process?   NOT OK.

So while it's tragic, I have only a modicum of sympathy for her.  She made the decision to follow the devil into hell, so she shouldn't be surprised that she got burnt.

Now cue BSG's response about how she's 1) been there, 2) done that, and 3) I just don't know what the hell I'm talking about ... and she'll do so in the most vulgar and insulting manner, as only she can.

-"BB"-

[Burning Petard]

I will let BSG respond for herself. I am responding to BB as one who is a taxpayer and resents the cost of police activity in the local budgets today. I don't watch much TV. I stream nothing. I watch various 'news' programs. (I deeply resent that CBS management gives priority to professional golf--a good walk wasted--over 60 minutes) I vaguely give some effort to Jeopardy and Blue Bloods. I like 'Blue Bloods' I wish/hope it had some resemblance to reality.

But as a taxpayer, I am strongly in favor of de-funding the police, if only it would reduce the dangerous prank of 'swatting' But most of all it would reduce the cost to the taxpayer of paying for incompentent, or just wrong activity by cops who forget their job is to serve and protect. And don't get me started on the typical defense in police shootings "I was afraid for my life" G-d Dammit--that is my condition every time I drive on the i95 beltway around Baltimore. Check out what has happened in Denver in the last few years: de-funding works.

The comparison with Ernie Pyle is obscene.

snailgate.

[Big RR]

the same sort of risks Ernie Pyle took during WWII, risks that finally jumped up and sent him home in a box.

You're honestly comparing the police to the Japanese soldiers who shot Ernie Pyle? I understand in a war indiscriminate shooting without caring about who you hit--other soldiers, press civilians, even medical personnel--is fairly common. But even in the case of a riot I would think we should expect more from those we arm and empower to restore order; at the very least would expect them not to shoot indiscriminately (even wit rubber bullets), and especially to avoid shooting those who are legitimately there to report back to the public on the incident. Unfortunately, there are some cops who see themselves as cowboys who shoot first and ask questions later, and others who resent the press accurately reporting on what happens because it might reflect badly on them. I don't know what happened here, but the fact that she received a settlement makes me think the cops are not entirely blameless. Yes, the cops have to restore order, but they represent all of us, and I, for one, think we should expect better.

FWIW, the Jan 6 event are, to a lrge degree, the model of how cops should act; damn few shots were fired (thankfully) and the protesters were corralled and cordoned off and eventually departed; starting a fire fight could have resulted in something far worse. As someone who once occupied a public building in the 60s anti-war protests, I can tell you that tempers are flaring and nerves are frayed on both sides, so escalating the situation rarely helps and will usually make it worse.

We need much more from our cops than people who just bluster in and say kill the animals; we need people who exercise restraint and use good judgment at the command and line levels. I don't have the experience BSG has, but I did go with cops into some fairly precarious situations and I trusted them to use that judgement and have my back (and they did), but sadly, a good number of them don't and are just bullies who think they can do what they want.

[BoSoxGal]

Here’s a great story from the annals of American policing. Make sure you read in full before commenting, or else you might say something foolish.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ident.html

[Bicycle Bill]

Here’s a great story from the annals of American policing. Make sure you read in full before commenting, or else you might say something foolish.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ident.html

OK, genius.  Let's just say for a minute that I buy into your mindset that all cops are scum or worse (I'll set aside for minute your other assertions that religion is just a hide-out for pedophiles and groomers, and that women and minorities are still being held in metaphorical chains by the big bad white male patriarchy).

So what's your solution?  Crime ain't going to go away because the cops do.  What's your sure-fire miracle cure to keep us all safe from thieves, rapists, muggers, scam artists, and murderers?  Or are you just going to continue to cower behind your keyboard and live in fear, confined to your own house or apartment in your mostly-white suburb of Boston, while the barbarians take over and the rest of the world burns?

-"BB"-

[MajGenl.Meade]

I read it. The cop was stupid. Obviously he realized the danger of fire (shouting for the pump to be turned off) and yet he still sent the electric sparkles into the fuel-laden air, burning both the motorcycle guy and himself terribly in the process. Excessively stupid. But what (other than that) is the point? That he deliberately incinerated both parties in some display of macho me-ism?

Perhaps some over-aggression is the point. Why fire the taser at all? The story wasn't very clear on the alternatives altho' we can make our own should-a-bins. I stick with "really dumb" until shown otherwise.

[Big RR]

BB--certainly you're not saying we have to put up with the status quo, and the brutality of some (or all) cops, because there are no better choices, are you? I still maintain that we should demand better, and provide better training, or alternatively trained individuals, to respond to different situations. Sure, sometime you may need the firepower to fight off some things, but just as all fasteners are not nails that need to be hammered in (some mght be screws, others soldering or brazing, each requiring different tools and brazing), not every situation requires an armed paramilitary response and other trained specialists might be far better trained and equipped to deal with some. It's not that hard if we just demand more from those we employ and provide the proper training and tools to help them meet those standards. It does very little to just shrug and say "what can we do when the barbarians are trying to take everything from us, assault us, ...

Meade

Perhaps some over-aggression is the point. Why fire the taser at all? The story wasn't very clear on the alternatives although we can make our own should-a-bins. I stick with "really dumb" until shown otherwise.

. Over aggression? Perhaos. But maybe a lack of training as well and a lack of understanding of what the likely consequences are in firing the taser.

[BoSoxGal]

Body camera footage of the 2022 incident showed Crawford tackling Barretto Baerga at the gas pump without first announcing himself.

A second deputy, Christopher Koffinas, used his stun gun on the victim, at which point Crawford shouted at the back-up officers to turn off the gas pump.

Several seconds later, as Barretto Baerga lay in a pool of gasoline, Crawford pointed his taser and said: 'You're gonna get Tased again, dude,' and then fired.

The blaze was instantly ignited and flames engulfed the biker.

Koffinas received a 40-hour unpaid suspension for firing his stun gun first, but is not facing any criminal charges.

NeJame, an attorney for Barretto Baerga's, commended the charging decision from the State Attorney's Office. He praised the office's 'ongoing professionalism and diligence on this matter.'

This case seems entirely indefensible, and while I grasp the concept of baby steps in reforming law enforcement, it seems to me in a different jurisdiction the officers would both have been charged with criminal assault at some level, not just negligence. One officer is essentially getting off Scott free when it could just as easily have been his tasering that set off the fire - the act was negligent in total, deploying a taser in such proximity to open gasoline fumes. Insanely incompetent cops, it’s scary. And of course the whole interaction started off with the cop violating all his obligations to announce himself etc. and to start this whole conflagration over reckless driving? Maybe Florida hasn’t adopted responsible use of force and priority policing policies at all. Yes crotch rockets weaving in and out of traffic are highly annoying and create obvious dangers, I am not saying they aren’t a problem that should be addressed. But this guy was not such a menace to society that he deserved to have his life put at such extreme risk in the process of apprehension. Obviously the cop went extreme aggro mode, lost his damn mind and tasered this guy who was already on the ground with the intent to inflict harm. He may have been dumb as rocks but he was not incapable of comprehending that gas and sparks don’t mix. Honestly I would be inclined to think that in the moment of his unleashed rage he just revealed the psychopath behind the mask and yes, sometimes psychopaths harm themselves in the process of harming others. I personally hope his burns cause him a great deal of agony, he deserves it for what he’s done.

And OF COURSE the taxpayers of Florida should pay every penny of the victim’s actual damages and a big fat award for pain and suffering too. Taxpayers are responsible for the dreadful people they employ. Maybe taxpayers will start getting behind the idea of choosing better people - and training them better for these jobs and setting higher standards for their behavior - once they start seeing more and more payouts for horrific violations of basic human decency nevermind civil rights.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Body camera footage of the 2022 incident showed Crawford tackling Barretto Baerga at the gas pump without first announcing himself. A second deputy, Christopher Koffinas, used his stun gun on the victim, at which point Crawford shouted at the back-up officers to turn off the gas pump.

Several seconds later, as Barretto Baerga lay in a pool of gasoline, Crawford pointed his taser and said: 'You're gonna get Tased again, dude,' and then fired. The blaze was instantly ignited and flames engulfed the biker.

One officer is essentially getting off Scott free when it could just as easily have been his tasering that set off the fire - the act was negligent in total, deploying a taser in such proximity to open gasoline fumes.

In reality, no - it couldn't have been Koffinas' taser that started the fire because it was Crawford's taser that started the fire.

Perhaps you mean, "Koffinas' taser didn't start the fire but it was a distinctly possible outcome of such carelessness". So he should be punished for what didn't happen but might have happened if he'd done it.

He equally well could have shot the m/cyclist with his pistol so perhaps he should be punished for shooting the chap even though he didn't actually do that either?

Points about lack of training, over-yahooness, stupidity and so on are well taken. But let's not start talk of punishing people for things they haven't done as if they had done it. Clearly, Crawford did not intend to put anyone's life at risk, especially his own.

A note about "announcing": when a man in a police uniform jumps from a police-car and other such vehicles roll up flashing their pizza-bars, and one grabs me, my first thought is not "You bounder! You didn't tell me you were a policeman!" The circs are usually a bit of a give-away. This isn't Briana here (Lord knows, that was a horrible and fatal fiasco).

[Econoline]

Meade— think of it this way: let's say two gunmen approach a stranger in a public space. Gunman A tackles the stranger and knocks him to the ground; Gunman #2 fires his gun but misses his target (inflicting only a minor flesh wound and miraculously neither hitting any of the many innocent bystanders nor causing any property damage). Gunman A then fires and nearly kills the victim, leaving him in a hospital with critical injuries and disabled for the rest of his life. So in your view, would you say that ONLY Gunman A did anything wrong and ONLY he should be charged with a crime?...and that Gunman #2 was innocent of any wrongdoing and shouldn't be charged with ANYTHING?

(IMO, they're both criminals and both should be charged, though they committed different crimes and shouldn't both face the same possible punishment.)

[Burning Petard]

OK. I wadded through all the adds to be sure I saw the whole thing. What I observed was more than one cop, and a 'perceived bad guy laying on the ground face down while somebody was yelling 'get down on ground' while that is where there perp was, and 'give me your hand' while a cop already had one hand in control, ready to put on the cuffs.

What I think about all it is that the cops brains and decision cycles were running way behind their own actions. They had him swarmed, why was it necessary to use the taser at all? Just what model of tasers were they using? some are intended for contact range, some for immobilizing from outside the reach of a knife.

But I am not a trained public safety officer, licensed to kill. Seems those who are, have decided to charge some of 'their peers" with criminal violations.

The supervisor says He sees no need to change procedures. Clearly something needs to change. The results here were not what should be desired. Did the riding of dirt bikes on the streets end? Fireballs and cops in front of cameras explaining it all are not what the procedures were intended to produce. Maybe they are. This was in Florida after all.

I am most saddened by the observation that this thread was started in 2014 and I don't see much change. Not on the streets of USofA or in this forum.

snailgate