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Don't Go To The Border Mr. President...
Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:20 pm
by Lord Jim
There's a a lot of brouhaha going on in the media and amongst politicos on both sides of the aisle, calling for Obama to visit the border in the wake of a sad upsurge in illegal alien children coming to the US from Central America (an upsurge that is a direct result of unscrupulous con men in the region deliberately mis-representing Obama's "deferred action" Executive Order regarding the deportation of minors brought to this country from Mexico by their parents...it's the good ol' Law Of Unintended Consequences rearing its ugly head yet again...)
Even though his excuse for not going down to the border is laughably disingenuous...he said he didn't want to do a "Photo-op"...(yeah, like this is a President who eschews "photo-ops"...on the very day he made that humorous assertion, he was busy doing a photo-op at a Texas barbecue joint...) it would be very ill-advised for him to go there...
If he went to "the border" who the hell would he meet with? Would he go to a detention camp where he would be photographed surrounded like a smiling Father Christmas by a bunch of these kids? (Talk about a bad "photo-op"...a scene like that would double, triple or quadruple the illegal alien flow coming north, and kick vulnerable House and and Senate Demos running in the midterms right in The Particulars...)
Or would he meet with Border Patrol agents and people angry about the influx of illegals? A "photo op" of a bunch of people shaking their fingers at him won't send a good message either; it would just make him look weak...(and Lord knows this President doesn't need any help in that department...)
No, for Obama to "go to the border" would be a big mistake, any way you cut it...bad politically, and bad for the country...
What needs to happen here, is for these folks to start getting promptly re-patriated, and then the word will get out down there that the idea that all kids sent to the US will be allowed to stay is a sham.
Deeds are what will make a difference here, not words...(or pictures...)
Re: Don't Go To The Border Mr. President...
Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:40 pm
by Econoline
I agree with you 100% on this, Jim. To those who want Obama to "go to the border" my question is simply "...and once he GOES there, what should he DO there?" As you've pointed out, there is no coherent, sensible answer to that question.
Re: Don't Go To The Border Mr. President...
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:02 am
by Gob
Econoline wrote:I agree with you 100% on this, Jim. To those who want Obama to "go to the border" my question is simply "...and once he GOES there, what should he DO there?"
Vacation?
Re: Don't Go To The Border Mr. President...
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:17 am
by Econoline
*
NOBODY* goes to south Texas in the summer for enjoyment!
BTW, I have a similar question for Rick Perry (and anyone who agrees with him) about stationing National Guard troops on the Tex-Mex border:
"...and once they GO
there, what should they DO
there?" (I note that even Rick Perry,
while being interviewed on Fox News, couldn't give a sensible answer to that question.)
Re: Don't Go To The Border Mr. President...
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:34 am
by Lord Jim
There are people on the left who want to see him go down there and schmooze with the illegals, in some sort of "welcoming" gesture...(funny how some of the same people who are the first to jump up to say we can't be "the world's policeman" seem to want us to be "the world's refugee camp")
It's hard to imagine a worse idea...
Not only would it conflict with his stated (and correct) policy that ultimately most of these folks will be sent back, it would send exactly the wrong message to the folks still down there, and hand his domestic political adversaries (who are already deeply distrustful that he is serious about sending these folks back) yet another stick to whack him with...
And there are people on the right who want him to go down there to be confronted by the anti-illegal alien protestors just because they love the idea of Obama having people publicly get in his face...They want to see him somehow "punished"...
I don't really see any value to that either...
It's a very sad situation and my heart goes out to these kids and their parents, but the cold hard reality is that there are many sad situations around the globe, and we simply cannot take in everybody. We need a comprehensive immigration reform bill, but this immediate, particular situation is different. If I could wave a magic wand or find a Genie who could make it so that if we agreed to let everyone who has come here in this wave so far to stay, no more would come, It might be possible to persuade me to take the deal.
But of course, the fact of the matter is if we did that the exact opposite thing would happen. The 1000-1500 per day who have been coming would quickly turn into 5000-10,000 a day...
And now I see where the high falutin' United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees has decided to stick their unwanted nose in this...
Of course nothing these poohbahs have to say has any legal effect, but I think I'd like to find out where the commission members live so we can start setting up camps in their front yards...
Re: Don't Go To The Border Mr. President...
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:43 am
by Lord Jim
BTW, I have a similar question for Rick Perry (and anyone who agrees with him) about stationing National Guard troops on the Tex-Mex border: "...and once they GO there, what should they DO there?"
I'm all for increasing border security, but the fact is that if we had 100,000 more troops on the border it would make no difference whatsoever in
this situation...
Because for the most part, these people aren't "sneaking" in; they're coming openly on buses and trains, and because they aren't Mexican citizens, we can't just turn them around. (Part of the solution to ending this particular illegal alien flow is to co-ordinate with the Mexican government to get these folks stopped at Mexico's southern border.)
There's a well intended provision in the law that's being used here (once, again it's our old friend,
The Law Of Unintended Consequences) that gives these kids more procedural protections than most would have. This was put in place to protect kids being sent here as a part of human trafficking; kids who were being sent to work as prostitutes or other forms of slave labor.
The provisions were not intended for a situation like this, where parents are willingly sending their kids to get them out of poverty or to escape gang violence. (A situation like this was never foreseen)
Where we need to "beef up" the manpower to deal with this is with increasing personnel to work with these procedures so that the re-patriation process can be expedited. It seems to me this law could also use some amending...
Re: Don't Go To The Border Mr. President...
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:23 am
by Lord Jim
BTW, even though (as I'm sure anyone can tell) I'm absolutely in favor of sending these folks back home as expeditiously as is reasonably possible, I was pretty appalled at the behavior of some of the protestors down in So Cal...
How nasty a bully does one have to be to yell and scream at frightened children?

Re: Don't Go To The Border Mr. President...
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:32 am
by BoSoxGal
Wickham: Send border children to Gitmo
DeWayne Wickham, 6:36 p.m. EDT July 7, 2014
Don't scatter refugees to unprepared facilities when we can do something better.
Send them to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. That's what President Obama should do with the children surging across our country's borders in search of a better life.
With congressional Republicans absurdly accusing him of causing this flood of child migrants from Central America, there's little chance the GOP will work with Obama to fix this problem before draining it of all opportunity for partisan pandering.
Rather than let the children be treated as political pawns, the president should send them to the Guantanamo Bay Naval Station. While this U.S. military installation is known as a prison for enemy combatants, that penal colony occupies just a small portion of the 45-square-mile base.
Obtained from Cuba in a 1903 treaty, the base was used in the 1990s as a detention camp for Haitians escaping bloodshed. Though many of them were treated only slightly better than the prisoners from the U.S. global war on terrorism, who started showing up there after 9/11, Guantanamo is capable of being a far more hospitable place for kids fleeing the horrors of life in Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador.
At the Navy base, which boasts movie theaters, American fast-food restaurants and excellent recreational facilities, care of the child migrants should be put in the hands of officials from the Department of Health and Human Services, rather than the Department of Homeland Security.
Scattering them across the U.S. to immigration centers that lack the space and staff to deal with large numbers of children will turn the problem into a ticking time bomb. Relocating them to Guantanamo would ratchet up the pressure on their home countries to repatriate them. No nation can long ignore the global attention that will follow their lost children to that naval base.
The U.S. has a long history of offering haven to dispossessed children, from World War II's Operation Pied Piper that evacuated children from Britain, to Operation Pedro Pan that moved more than 14,000 children out of Cuba, to Operation Babylift's rescue of youngsters from Vietnam.
But today's child migrants present a special problem. They are neither refugees of a war the U.S. was involved in, nor the product of a lingering ideological tug of war. Instead, they are part of what, for many Americans, is a crisis of little concern. The domestic unrest in Central America that has sent these children scurrying for U.S. borders is one that ultimately must be resolved by the affected nations. But until good sense, or international pressure, forces them to deal with it, the U.S. must provide a haven.
The best way to do that is to house all the children, temporarily, at Guantanamo Bay.
DeWayne Wickham, dean of Morgan State University's School of Global Journalism and Communication, writes on Tuesdays for USA TODAY.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2 ... /12315921/
Re: Don't Go To The Border Mr. President...
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:36 am
by BoSoxGal
I just saw a bit on YouTube from 60 Minutes, about this Brit who saved over 600 Jewish kids from eastern Europe as the Nazis advanced; apparently he could have saved hundreds more, but the US government refused to allow the program and refused entry to the kids.
Re: Don't Go To The Border Mr. President...
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:44 am
by Lord Jim
That article presents an interesting idea...it's certainly worthy of discussion...
My only question would be what the attitude of the Central American parents would be...
Would they think, "well even if they send him/her to a camp in Guantanamo, they're better off than here" and would this in turn result in an acceleration of the flow of illegals, that would wind up overwhelming the available facilities and resources?
But as an intermediate step in the process of re-patriation, Gitmo may make sense. It might be easier to administer to the needs of these kids in a central location, and it would also alleviate local political strains in the US.
Re: Don't Go To The Border Mr. President...
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:11 am
by Big RR
I would think that there would be lot of abandoned military bases in the US that could be used more efficiently and cheaply than anything in Cuba (which must be pretty expensive to supply from the US.
Re: Don't Go To The Border Mr. President...
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:14 pm
by oldr_n_wsr
Close the Bush loophole in the immigration laws. Secure the border that was supposed to happen in 86, 96 and 06 laws that supposedly "fixed" the immigration problems. Yet here we are again. Reagan gave amnesty and treid to get the border secure. Result was amnesty, and a porous border. Happened again and again. Forget a comprehensive approach.
Take it step by step.
1) Change the law that makes the USA take in those from nations not bordering on our borders.
2) Once (1) has been fixed, have jets ready to fly all back to their country of origin.
3) Secure the border once and for all. Fences, drones, electronics, more border patrol officers, whatever it takes.
4) Figure what to do with the 10-40million illegal aliens already here (never can get a real honest number on this). Give them green cards, let them legally be able to work as they are already working. Path to citizenship? Maybe, I'm up in the air on that one.
5) Figure out how many people we want to allow in every year and what types we want in. Educated? We have thousands who attend our universities, wouldn't it be in our best interests to lure them to stay in the country? We need migrant workers too. Some way to get them a temporary green card to "follow the harvest".
I think the biggest immigration failure is not enforcing the laws already on the books.
Re: Don't Go To The Border Mr. President...
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:29 pm
by rubato
The only long-term solution here is the same as it is everywhere else in the world: make the conditions of life better in the countries people are willing to die to get away from.
We can pass laws against gravity and the tides all we want and then complain that "they're not enforcing the law!" ... Forever.
yrs,
rubato
Re: Don't Go To The Border Mr. President...
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:35 pm
by oldr_n_wsr
I don't disagree with
make the conditions of life better in the countries people are willing to die to get away from.
But we can't "nation build" either. We know where that ends up.
Re: Don't Go To The Border Mr. President...
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:35 pm
by Guinevere
Or how about we actually welcome people who want to escape horrific conditions to live a better life, and are willing to work for it. What if all those dollars that immigrants (legal and illegal) send home to their families actually stayed in this country. What if those people paid income taxes, bought homes and paid property taxes. We are a nation of immigrants. We are people who worked hard to become prosperous and successful. Why can't we extend the same opportunities we had, to others.
Re: Don't Go To The Border Mr. President...
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:45 pm
by oldr_n_wsr
Why can't we extend the same opportunities we had, to others.
We can and do. But peole need to do it the "right" way, the legal way. Yes, the legal way needs fixing too. But we still need to secure the border. We can't continue to take in tens of thousands of people that just come across the border. There needs to be a system and a way for some (not all) who want to have a better life here in the USA to get in legally.
Re: Don't Go To The Border Mr. President...
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:49 pm
by Econoline
rubato wrote:The only long-term solution here is the same as it is everywhere else in the world: make the conditions of life better in the countries people are willing to die to get away from.
We can pass laws against gravity and the tides all we want and then complain that "they're not enforcing the law!" ... Forever.
The other alternative (and I honestly would not be surprised if it gets to this point within the next ten years--especially if we get another Republican POTUS) is to start shooting and killing
everyone--men, women, and children--who tries to cross into the U.S. from Mexico.(Though from what I read the conditions in Central America, especially Guatemala, are so horrific that desperate immigrants would probably just keep coming.) I'm half-wondering if that was Rick Perry's
real intent with his suggestion of bringing in loads of armed National Guardsmen.
Is that really the kind of nation we want to be?
Re: Don't Go To The Border Mr. President...
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:57 pm
by Big RR
Oldr--
1) Change the law that makes the USA take in those from nations not bordering on our borders.
I'm not sure what law you mean; other than maybe Cubans on American soil, I am not aware of any law that requires us to "take in" anyone. Yes, we do have to treat all those who come here, including those who illegally enter, with due process under the law and give them a chance to plead their case, e.g. for amnesty, but I am not aware of any law that requires us to take anyone in, although we may choose to for economic, political, or humanitarian reasons. We can tighten that up, but is it really in our interest to do so. Certainly we cannot and should not accept everyone who wants to come here, but giving a relatively small number of refugees from violence and political oppression a chance to live here wouldn't cost us all that much, and would be in line with American ideals (or at least the ideals I used to think we held
2) Once (1) has been fixed, have jets ready to fly all back to their country of origin.
Easier said than done, especially if we don't know what their country of national origin is or if that country refuses to take them in. This is one of the biggest problems our immigration system has to face; someone comes here undocumented and, when apprehended, says they are from a country (usually one of the more economically advanced south and central American ones); that country refuses to admit them without documentation that they are citizens (and they have no documentation). What do we do then? We can look for a country to take them in, but they are not easy to find. How do we repatriate them?
3) Secure the border once and for all. Fences, drones, electronics, more border patrol officers, whatever it takes.
At what cost and to what end? Do we bankrupt ourselves and turn our border areas into armed camps to keep everyone out, or do we approach it more pragmatically (see 5). Also, might it not be more practical to work with their home countries to increase economic activities there (as rubato suggested) and to tighten up work restrictions and sanctions against employers who profit from this "trade"?
4) Figure what to do with the 10-40million illegal aliens already here (never can get a real honest number on this). Give them green cards, let them legally be able to work as they are already working. Path to citizenship? Maybe, I'm up in the air on that one.
Agree, we have to deal with that
5) Figure out how many people we want to allow in every year and what types we want in. Educated? We have thousands who attend our universities, wouldn't it be in our best interests to lure them to stay in the country? We need migrant workers too. Some way to get them a temporary green card to "follow the harvest".
, but no law requires us to take anyone in
Leaving aside "requirements to take in", we should set up a more systematic system to get those we want and here into the country; a more fair and predictable immigration system might even deter those who choose to sneak in; the journey is far from easy or inexpensive.
Econoline--I hope not, but I do think their are some who would respond affirmatively to that question.
Re: Don't Go To The Border Mr. President...
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:32 pm
by oldr_n_wsr
Big RR
The law was something Bush II put through about non-border people (aka other than Mexicans and Canadians) who show up at the border go into the "process" rather than just be turned around and sent back to their home country.
tighten up work restrictions and sanctions against employers who profit from this "trade"?
Agreed. Isn't "E-Verify" supposed to do this?
How do we repatriate them?
We need to work with the Mexican officials as most/all are coming in from Mexico regardless of their country of origin. Somehow, Mexico is complicite in this as they have harsh immigration rules but have been lax in enforcement allowing people to cross their country to get here. I heard they (Mexico) now have a 48 or 72 hour visa(?) system for those wanting to cross and get to the USA.
No easy solutions, but when are there easy solutions?
Re: Don't Go To The Border Mr. President...
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:03 pm
by Lord Jim
The other alternative (and I honestly would not be surprised if it gets to this point within the next ten years--especially if we get another Republican POTUS) is to start shooting and killing everyone--men, women, and children--who tries to cross into the U.S. from Mexico.
Wow Econo, that
really seems off the rails to me...
Where on earth do you get
that from?
