Plan B Forum

One graph tells it all. If you're a rich waster you'll do better than a poor kid who does everything right.





A little deck-stacking is all it takes.


yrs,
rubato

One common tater's comment on the graph in the OP:

The question of how much control the average individual has over his or her own economic outcomes is not a theoretical or ideological question. What to do about the odds, that’s philosophical and political. But the power of chance and received advantage — those things can be measured, and have to be. And what we are finding, more and more, is that the outcomes of individuals are buffeted constantly by the forces of economic inequality. Education has been proffered as a tool to counteract these forces, but that claim, too, cannot withstand scrutiny. Redistributive efforts are required to address these differences in opportunity.

In the meantime, it falls on us to chip away, bit by bit, on the lie of American meritocracy.

I take issue with your thread title, rubato. Meritocracy would be a system based on opportunity correlated to merit; isn't the point of your graph that opportunity is based on wealth, which would be oligarchy or aristocracy of the wealthy?

I meant it to be ironic. The graph proves that we don't have a meritocracy.


yrs,
rubato

the things that pass for "proof" on this site are pretty thin.

It may be that the "rich high school dropouts" learned to read. Unlike the piss-poor uneducated sods who get a free-ride into college without the ability to comprehend English. And come out in the same condition.

Dropouts like Bill Gates, Steven Jobs, Larry Ellison, Richard Branson.... how dare they?!?! Not exactly "rich" to start with and three of 'em didn't bother with college that much... so perhaps they are left out of consideration because they'd bugger up someone's bigoted agenda? Or maybe they fit into the first column.

Either way, it's interesting that (apparently) the top 20% of the oodles of cash quintile is occupied by the same percentage (20/19) or maybe since my math skills are piss-poor I just don't get it.

My advice to potentially poor college grads - start rich and drop out!

So you are saying that four people who went to college for varying time and came from middle class or very rich (Gates, Branson) backgrounds are proof of something in general?


Try framing it as a coherent argument. Sober up first.


yrs,
rubato

Yes, rude person. They are proof that "dropping out' is not necessarily a key factor - brains are. Your interesting but vacuous (word of the day) graph removes all factors except two - money and completion of education - with absolutely no regard for ability and intelligence, let alone anything else.

Half of USians who go to college should not be there because they are ignorant, uneducable morons who should take a job following the circus elephants with a shovel and bucket. Or if no elephants are available, they could shadow your good self.

Too much emphesis is on going to college these days. Many kids are not college material and woudl be better off going to vocational schools. But most high school coarses and teachers (and parents) see college as the only way up the ladder. It's not.

rubato wrote:I meant it to be ironic. The graph proves that we don't have a meritocracy.


yrs,
rubato

Ahhh . . . Doh!

Sorry for being dense. I haven't had a good sense of humor the past few days.

bigskygal wrote:

rubato wrote:I meant it to be ironic. The graph proves that we don't have a meritocracy.


yrs,
rubato

Ahhh . . . Doh!

Sorry for being dense. I haven't had a good sense of humor the past few days.

You're in Montana, the darkness is growing longer every day and its getting colder. What brighter side is there to see?


yrs,
rubato

Many kids are not college material and woudl be better off going to vocational schools.

Perhaps, if the jobs were there. But I know mechanics (good ones) making not much more than minimum wage; ditto for carpenters, roofers, and painters. Unless you have the ability and interest to run your own business (not to mention the startup capital), most of these jobs are not all that great.

But they are jobs Big RR and someone needs to do them. Better to train that plumber in plumbing than in social work or (worse yet) Gender Studies and then have a college grad with a useless degree butchering ones pipes.

It could happen

True Meade, but then we also need social workers (I work with many who are doing an increasingly difficult job with children's services, e.g.), and we also do need people who have broad based educations to fill a number of jobs. If we look at college as a trade school which one attends solely to get a job related to one's area of study, then I would think everyone should major in engineering or the sciences until these areas become glutted with graduates. But IMHO the benefits of a college education extend beyond career preparation.

As for the trades, from what I can see, many trades are flooded with qualified persons as well; and hence an experienced mechanic will make little more than a newly minted one. We live in a throw away society where we throw appliances away rather than fix them (or some fix them themselves), so that career market is shriveling. Construction trades have seen a big downward pressure in salaries for a number of reasons. Independent plumbers and electricians can do OK, but not everyone is suited to run their own business. I just don't see trade school as some sort of cure for the underemployed (anymore than college is). If it's something you are interested in and like to do, it makes sense, but it is hardly a pathway to a better future.

I see it as a place for parents to send/store those 18 year-old kids who are obviously useless at education and unwilling to get a job. At the moment they get to go to college so the parents can get them out of the house without upsetting social convention. There already are plenty of people with a broad-based education etc. etc. etc.

At least trade schools might produce people who can do something instead of useless puddings with meaningless degrees.

rubato wrote:

bigskygal wrote:

rubato wrote:I meant it to be ironic. The graph proves that we don't have a meritocracy.


yrs,
rubato

Ahhh . . . Doh!

Sorry for being dense. I haven't had a good sense of humor the past few days.

You're in Montana, the darkness is growing longer every day and its getting colder. What brighter side is there to see?


yrs,
rubato

Actually, it has more to do with being physically assaulted Monday by our demented Sovereign citizen, and having the Sheriff's deputy who witnessed the incident refuse to cite him. I shouldn't be surprised, as it's been their longstanding policy to allow him to be disorderly and harassing of county employees in the courthouse with zero accountability, but I was shocked and disappointed nonetheless. I'm also chagrined that I've been prosecuting cases for over two years based on reports of a LEO I know now to be very capable at distorting truth in his incident reports.

Construction trades have seen a big downward pressure in salaries for a number of reasons.

Illegal Aliens are a big reason. at least around here

a LEO I know now to be very capable at distorting truth in his incident reports.

Leos can be like that; it's too bad he's not a Capricorn...