Plan B Forum

Just bought Sarah Chayes' new book. I had heard the interview (linked below) on Friday so we detoured through the bookstore after dinner and bought a copy.

http://www.npr.org/2015/01/16/377780883 ... corruption


Very impressive woman. She's accomplished quite a lot. Her thesis is that it is the kind of systematic embedded corruption which we see in Nigeria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, which fuels the religious extremist groups which then become violent.

Interesting idea. I'll read it this week and get back with more later on. Anyone else hear the interview?


yrs,
rubato

I misremember a South African joke (told to me by a Xhosa) - something about the difference between corruption in road maintenance in Indonesia and Africa. The same kinds of people pay off the same kinds of people in both countries and millions disappear, but in Indonesia the road gets repaired. In Africa, the road vanishes.

MajGenl.Meade wrote:I misremember a South African joke (told to me by a Xhosa) - something about the difference between corruption in road maintenance in Indonesia and Africa. The same kinds of people pay off the same kinds of people in both countries and millions disappear, but in Indonesia the road gets repaired. In Africa, the road vanishes.

I have heard it said that people get the government they deserves. Why is it that Africans can’t, generally speaking, have good government? Look at all the money that oil has generated for Nigeria; where has the money gone? I think that the problem is or at least one of the major problems is the tribal nature of the continent. In the mind of most, it is better to vote for a corrupt individual in your own clan or tribe than a better man in another clan or tribe. You are in a better position to know than me General, so what do you think?

I believe that we are fortunate not to have lived during the times when our infant societies worked out of all the same kinds of problems that beset the developing or underdeveloped world today. Europe, for it is to that area we must look, has had all its tribalistic corruptions, wars and failures of development against a background of a "small" world - not beset by vast amounts of revenues and all the tools of modern society.

Developing countries find themselves awash in more material goods and wealth than anyone has ever learned (in their society) to employ and to regulate. There is not the benefit of trial and error that our own "western" culture has developed into the rule of law - ethics - morality - for good or bad. It is a disadvantage to try to create a new societal ethic amidst great (and easy) opportunities for corruption, individual and systemic.

"Being African" is not the reason for the kinds of governmental difficulty and even disaster one sees on the continent. Despite the efforts of colonialists, Africa has not known the kind of unifying force that thrust aside "natural" borders of tribe and ethnicity such as we have benefited from - the Greek culture; the Roman empire; the Holy Roman empire and the Christian church. One sees similar unifying forces at work in China and Japan, two vastly different playing fields. In history, such forces have not had to deal with the abundance of production, with TV, with computers and so on. It makes a difference.

Africa now is doing nothing more nor less than European societies were experiencing 2000 years ago up until today. We're getting the benefit of having worked out the problems before we had so many opportunities to get filthy rich. We was just filthy.

IMO.

Bah much easier to be racist than to take a nuanced look at the situation like that Meade.

Sarah Chayes mentions that the reformation was driven by reactions to corruption.

Regimes overthrown recently significantly due to corruption:

Iran: Shah
Nicaragua: Somoza
Pilippines: Marcos
Ukraine:
Tunisia
Egypt
Lybia




yrs,
rubato

Yeah. Martin Luther mentioned it too. Erasmus wrote a footnote somewhere I think. Maybe Calvin touched on it in passing.

Erasmus wrote an entire book on it; "education of a Christian Prince". (as did his contemporary Machiavelli) Most of the 96 theses addressed corruption.


yrs,
rubato

You don't say? I'm not sure that the first three on your list would qualify as "recently" but you've got a point there. Certainly a reaction against corruption, as with the Reformation, may be a necessary precondition for political/moral/ethical revolution.

Crackpot wrote:Bah much easier to be racist than to take a nuanced look at the situation like that Meade.

Just trolling BS that I don’t have time for, moving on with life.

people getting the govt they deserve is bullcrap. boko haram governs vast swaths of territory, do the Christians girls deserve to be enslaved after their parents are butchered?

what about ISIS, do the yazidis, Christians and shi ites deserve to be butchered?

did the European jews deserve hitler?

did the Ukraine deserve stalin?

Deserve is a loaded word; no one deserves to be brutalized, but one can easily contribute to the rise of a tyrant by their actions or inactions. I won't go into the details on each example you give, but there are clearly paths that could have been taken by the persons in the countries to avoid the rise of thugs; often those thugs are brought in with the thunderous applause of some and the abetting silence of many others. So I think the case can be made that we do get the government we deserve.

please, go into the details. i may learn something.