Plan B Forum

We have been going to an Amish store for groceries lately. The produce is totally organic, the butter is made there, and the baked goods are to die for.
What truly saddens me is that an Amish education consists of eight years in a one room schoolhouse being taught by a teacher with an eighth grade education.

This is allowed because of their religion. Basically they are never prepared to do anything but live in the Amish way. Some do leave the order, about 20%. But they are not educationally prepared to live in the modern world.

Should this continue to be allowed or should they receive at least some high school education as well as is required by law elsewhere in the US? Should they not receive education from a licensed teacher?

Should they not receive education from a licensed teacher?

That could be problematic. In many states, mine included, private school teachers ore not licensed (and to not have to have any particular credentials). Some very good schools (and classes) are taught by unlicensed teachers

This issue was decided by the Supreme Court more than 40 years ago in a case called Wisconsin v. Yoder. Basically, the Court ruled that more advanced education violated the rights of the Amish to free exercise of their religion, which holds that anything beyond the basics is "worldly" knowledge that undermines their belief in living in Biblical simplicity; moreover, the state had not presented sufficient evidence that two more years of compulsory education would have done the Amish any good, since the kids were getting vocational instruction at home and could drop out of school at 16 anyway.

The case is a clear anomaly in terms of the Court's First Amendment jurisprudence, but was justified mostly on the historical record of the cohesion and success of Amish society as a unique case in itself.

As Constitutional legal reasoning, I think it's pure bullshit.

s Constitutional legal reasoning, I think it's pure bullshit.

Thanks for the explanation Sue and I will take your word on the BS.

To me it is similar to refusing vaccines in its nature. The children must deal directly with the repercussions of the parent's decisions. Yes I realize that we all deal with our parent's decisions but some are easier to overcome than others. Lack of education and disease are 2 of the worst as I see it.

To me it is similar to refusing vaccines in its nature.

Except that foregoing vaccines poses a direct threat to anyone an Amish person may come into contact with. In contrast, a lack of formal education really only impacts the person and the loss to society is nebulous and diffuse (especially if the Amish stays in their own society). The esteemed Justice Douglas dissented on the grounds you raise -- that it is one thing to say as between the state and the parent, the parent should get to exercise his/her religion in this case, but there is no reason that a child nearing adulthood should not also get to weigh in on their own education. As for the decision being B.S., it was a unanimous decision on the main issue that the right to practice a religion supersedes the state's interest in seeing children educated at least under the facts of this case.

Genetically the Amish evolve very, very slowly. There's so much incest going on within the cult that not many of its members think about raising their IQs any further that the 3Rs.

They do make a mean shoo-fly pie, however.

Amish saying: "A woman's kisses may fade away, but her good cooking rarely does."

perhaps you should stop supporting the Amish if it bothers you so much.

but then you would have to stop buying all that good natural food.....

....that reminds me, I m going to go to the Amish market and get me a chunk of that good Bleu cheese and check on some bad ass chickens for my son. the foxes ate the first batch, except for one little banty chicken.

Well, it is a very interesting question.

One of the purposes of education is to shape and direct children into what adults think is the best person they can become.

By this measure they are one of the most successful groups in creating adults who integrate into their world. Their retention rate is actually over 85%. By only providing an 8th grade education they create a population of adolescents who then must choose between integrating into Amish society, which they know a lot about and can see how they will fit in, and breaking away into a larger world which is mostly unknown to them and for which they have few useful skills and even lack experience in learning new skills. The 'meta-learning' of education is to learn how to teach yourself and they have little practice at this.

So it is no surprise that by making one choice difficult and somewhat frightening and the other well known with rich sensual associations and a sense of certain success, their children choose to be Amish.

By their internal lights this is the right thing to do because to be Amish is to be the best person they can. A belief found in most Christian dogmas and it should be pointed out that Mormons, Catholics, and Seventh-Day-Adventists all run large parochial school systems with the same goal; turning out replicas of themselves. All of them, in fact, are manipulative and harm their children by teaching dogma as fact and generally are poor at critical thinking but the Amish technique is the most manipulative of all. Just leave it all out! They can't questions things they've never heard of.

As a liberal I question whether it is right not to provide the largest and broadest skill set possible so that the individual child is equipped to choose freely for themselves what they should believe and follow. But I have to admit that I cannot say that what they are doing is more wrong than what other sects do and thus I must support their right to educate their children as they see fit.

And they could be right. The Amish are better people and better Christians than nearly all other putatively Christian groups.


yrs,
rubato

it should be pointed out that Mormons, Catholics, and Seventh-Day-Adventists all run large parochial school systems with the same goal; turning out replicas of themselves. All of them, in fact, are manipulative and harm their children by teaching dogma as fact and generally are poor at critical thinking ...

...The Amish are better people and better Christians than nearly all other putatively Christian groups.

LMAO

It should be pointed out that the sum total of rube's knowledge about parochial schools and their goals could be written on the bottom of a Bazooka Joe bubble gum wrapper, with plenty of room left over for the fortune...

Over-generalize much?

Yet another shit-bomb from LJ. No thought. No content. All crap.


yrs,
rubato

Just pointing out your bigoted shit bombs, sweetness...

I'm not sure how much Amish culture differs from one culture to another, but my wife went to college with an Amish girl who was being sent there (now called, "California University of Pennsylvania") so that she could teach in the Amish community. She got a degree in Education, including the mandatory semester of student-teaching, which was done in a public high school.

They also encouraged their Yoots to live outside the community for a time so that they could individually decide whether to live in or out of the Amish community. They generally had learned trades by the time they reached this stage, so finding employment - at the time - was not difficult.

Not sure about curriculum, but I suspect that 8 years of schooling in the Amish community would be at least equal to as many years in the American public school system - and would have the advantage of not including much of the required garbage.

I wonder if Rube would be interested in running some numbers to demonstrate the relative weakness of university students who had the disadvantage of 12 years of Mormon or RC parochial schooling.

Succeeding at getting an 8th grade education (the Amish) is better than what many inner city youths get.
And the Amish get some life skills along with the three R's.
Carpentry, farming, etc.

Not so much training as electricians though...

MajGenl.Meade wrote:Not so much training as electricians though...

In reference to public or Amish education?

amish craftsmen could probably wire your house and fix your car before they did their morning milking and rode their buggy to work....

In my own experience, the local Amish have clever and sometimes humorous ways of getting around their restrictions on the use of technology. One guy rents a sawmill from a neighboring farmer so that he can make and sell lumber. It is not unusual for them to borrow cell phones for a couple hours a day in order to communicate with outsiders (the "English") about business.

Given the fact that the do some residential construction under contract with "English" builders, I don't think there would be any problem with one of them learning how to wire a house or plumb it.

They do seem to find ways to circumvent the use of electricity. The store we go to is large. They have huge skylights in the ceiling and use gas lights. They have a freezer that is run off gas. They have a deli and the meat slicers are powered by air. I assume the air is powered by gas. They have public bathrooms with modern plumbing and I note they have some kind of sprinkler system in keeping with code. I find the store rather dark and shop in the frozen section with a flashlight. The cash registers seem to be battery operated. Cash or check only please no credit or debit as there is not yet a gas powered computer available I assume. If you get there early the ladies are singing in German and English, religious songs I guess, as they go about their baking and other work. I love going even though it is a 50 plus mile drive almost to Ohio.

well I haven t had too much experience with Amish people, I did have a couple girls in a buggy Woo Hooing at me once when I was a young man painting a chickenhouse roof, and I did get my dog from a Mennonite farm, but I have seen their work. they definitely know some algebra and geometry. they may not learn it in school, but the apprentices have to learn it if they want to be master carpenters. you have to do a lot of building on a farm, and they make cabinets and all that crap. I m sure that some of them could teach courses on animal husbandry at an agricultural college. they keep growing their farms and land holdings.....

regular morons ,huh?

of course the incest thing is a problem......