Plan B Forum

man, these folks are really suffering horribly.

I think we , the world, really have to consider intervening against isis and assad and al nusra .

muslims Christians and yazidis are all in a living hell .

don t we as human beings have a duty to do what we can?

it really doesn t help to lay political blame at this point does it?

there is blame enough to go around.

isn t it time to act now?

if the United Nations has any worth to world order now is the time to act

if not, don t we have some duty to help anyway? we bear much of the blame , I think. all of us, right and left, have elected goverments which share blame for this mess.

I bet this cartoon is understandable - it's from a Saudi newspaper

Why are Syrians not fleeing to Arab states but trying to crash into Europe?

MajGenl.Meade wrote:

I bet this cartoon is understandable - it's from a Saudi newspaper

Why are Syrians not fleeing to Arab states but trying to crash into Europe?

They have fled into in Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan which border Syria. Adjacent Muslim states (all Muslims are not Arabs). Several millions are in Turkey of which a fraction have given up hope of either making a life there or going home and fled to Europe, which is the adjacent land area.

Europe is seeing a small fraction of the total, they are just whining and acting like bigger assholes about it. Always nice to get the Christian view of things from you.


Refugees of the Syrian Civil War
Total population: *************** 4,013,292 estimated (9 July 2015)[1]
***************
*************** 4,013,292 registered by UNHCR
*************** (9 July 2015)[1]

Regions with significant populations
(Numbers do not include foreign citizens who left Syria)
 Turkey *************** 2,138,999 estimated (April 2015)[2]
***************
*************** 1,938,999 registered (April 2015)[2]
 Lebanon *************** 1,196,560 estimated (April 2015)[3]
***************
*************** 1,185,241 registered (April 2015)[3]
 Jordan *************** 628,427 estimated (April 2015)[4]
***************
*************** 628,427 registered (April 2015)[4]
 Iraq *************** 247,861 estimated (March 2015)[5]
***************
*************** 247,861 registered (March 2015)[5]
 Egypt *************** 133,862 estimated (April 2015)[6]
***************
*************** 133,862 registered (April 2015)[6] inspirit
 Germany *************** 105,000 estimated (March 2015)[7]
 Greece *************** 88,204 (2015 only)[8]
 Algeria *************** 25,000 estimated (Aug 2012)
***************
*************** 10,000 "asylum seekers"[9] (Jan 2013)
 Sweden *************** At least 40,000 (2015) [10][11][12][13]
 Austria *************** At least 18,000 (2015)[11][14]
 United Kingdom *************** 5,102 (2015)[15]
 Armenia *************** 3,248 applied for visas (July 2012)
***************
*************** 16,000 (Jan 2014) [16]
 Bahrain *************** 5,000 estimated (September 2012)[17]
 Libya *************** 4,716 estimated (February 2013)[18]
 Italy *************** 4,600 estimated (Sep 2013)[19]
 Bulgaria *************** More than 4,500[20] (Sep 2013)
***************
*************** As many as 10,000 expected by the end of 2013[21]
 Canada *************** 2,374 (August 2015)[22][23]
 Brazil *************** 1,740 (January 2015)[24]
 Romania *************** 1,300 (July 2014)[25]
 Argentina *************** 300+ families (Aug 2013)[26]
 Russia *************** >1,000 (Feb 2014)[27]
 Gaza Strip *************** 1,000 (Dec 2013)[28]
 France *************** 500 estimated (October 2013)[29]
 Macedonia *************** 255[30]
 Poland *************** >150 (July 2015)[31]
 Colombia *************** <100 (September 2014)[32]
 Uruguay *************** <100 (October 2014)[33]
 United States *************** <100 (December 2013)[34]
 Mexico *************** <30 (October 2014)
Language: *************** Arabic, Kurdish, Armenian, Aramaic
Religion: *************** Sunni Islam, Christianity, Shia Islam



yrs,
rubato

that s the spirit rube.

sheesh.

...and he gave you the Saudi view, %$#@$%%er

Icelanders (mostly pagans and non-religious people) protested and said they should take more refugees.

http://icelandreview.com/news/2015/09/0 ... e-refugees

While thousands of Icelanders have shown their support for refugees by signing on to a Facebook event dubbed Kæra [Dear] Eygló Harðar, others have voiced concern about the cost of accepting refugees in large numbers. In the interview on Stöð 2, Eygló responded to concerns that accepting refugees would reduce public service in the country. (Lately, the public discussion in Iceland has focused on the poor financial condition of senior citizens and the disabled—groups who have a hard time making ends meet.) On the contrary, she said that people who have come here as refugees in the past have contributed well to society by paying their taxes, and that future refugees would no doubt strengthen Icelandic society. When asked whether she had the support of her party in this matter, she said she had the support not only of her party, but also that of parliament.

This morning, the Icelandic government announced that a committee of five ministers would be established to discuss issues regarding refugees and immigrants, according to RÚV.

Recently, a Facebook page was specifically created to ask authorities to accept not 50, but 5,000 refugees. Some politicians sound concerned regarding the number of refugees we might accept.

Vilhjálmur Bjarnason, member of parliament for the Independence Party, estimates that each refugee accepted will cost society between ISK 15 and 20 million (USD 116-155,000, EUR 103-138,000). “Accepting 5,000 refugees would cost us ISK 1 billion [USD 7.7 million, EUR 6.9 million],” he said when interviewed by Saga Radio yesterday. The interviewer pointed out the cost would be the same as that of constructing a new national hospital, an issue which has been in discussion for years. ... "

None of that 'hate and fear immigrant' rhetoric we hear from right-wingers here.


yrs,
rubato

I wish that I d never opened the thread.

rube, you disgust me sometimes.

Europe is seeing a small fraction of the total, they are just whining and acting like bigger assholes about it. Always nice to get the Christian view of things from you.

None of that 'hate and fear immigrant' rhetoric we hear from right-wingers here.

He doesn't have a scintilla of an iota of the concept of irony, does he?

How many Syrians has the US taken Aspergers boy?

I also note that Saudi Arabia isn't on that list.

Germany is taking 800,000 according to an NPR report yesterday. That's 1% of their total population.

We are privileged to live in this country. We should and could do a much better job of recognizing that, and having empathy and being welcome to people who risk their lives every day to make a better and safer life for themselves and their families.

Gob wrote:

Europe is seeing a small fraction of the total, they are just whining and acting like bigger assholes about it. Always nice to get the Christian view of things from you.

None of that 'hate and fear immigrant' rhetoric we hear from right-wingers here.

He doesn't have a scintilla of an iota of the concept of irony, does he?

How many Syrians has the US taken Aspergers boy?

More than Australia apparently. Thigh to be fair they are dealing with an ice age down there.

Ah well Aspergers boy was whining about the number of Syrians "Europe' was taking, mote and beam and all that..

You're right though, fucking arctic down here mate...

Icelanders (mostly pagans and non-religious people) protested and said they should take more refugees.

Oh dear, oh dear...

There goes His Royal Wrongness, being completely wrong yet again...:

Religion: Most Icelanders (80%) are members of the Lutheran State Church.

Another 5% are registered in other Christian denominations, including the Free Church of Iceland and the Roman Catholic Church. Almost 5% of people practice ásatrú, the traditional Norse religion.

http://www.iceland.is/the-big-picture/quick-facts

Facts matter.

yrs,

Jimbato

Rube's amusing ignorance aside, the US unquestionably bears a significant responsibility for the Syrian refugee problem...

Not the sole responsibility, but a significant portion of the responsibility...

The endless dithering and navel gazing of this Administration, for three years in how to deal with the situation in Syria and who to support, has contributed mightily to the Syrian refugee situation...(not just in Europe, but in Turkey, Jordan, and Lebanon as well)

And this timorous, almost paralytic attitude towards taking any action, (Not just is Syria, but also in the failure to push through the Residual Force Agreement with Iraq) places upon the United States a large measure of responsibility for the consequences... (both in terms of the refugee situation, and the success of ISIS)

Many on the left like to argue, that "we shouldn't do anything"; that anytime we try to "do anything" the situation only becomes worse...

Well, now we've had seven years where that doctrine has been the guiding principle....

How's that been workin' out for us?

Today we have an "Islamic Caliphate" and tens of millions of refugees fleeing from their barbarism, and thousands murdered by them, and thousands more converted to their ideology, either directly or indirectly, poised to attack "the infidels"....

If that's an "improvement" over US engagement, when one looks at the results, the "improvement" is not immediately apparent to me...

The residual forces would have done nothing to solve the systematic problems that led to the collapse of the Iraqi army in the face of IS. It may have prevented some of the gains but that would have been at the cost of American lives for territory Iraq couldn't be bothered to save. The inherent problems in Iraq would have remained and when it comes down to it having the residual forces falls squarely into the hindsight is 20/20 realm of armchair quarterbacking. The biggest failure of Republican policy in their adventures of the Middle East is that you can't force people to do why they don't want or are not ready to do. Accepting a pluralistic society is something that has to be earned the hard way and has to be done relatively free of outside influence. That is why both Libya and Egypt have failed and Tunisia is barely maintaining a "successful" revolution.

As a side note this reason why I call the Obamas Libyan policy a success. Sure it didn't result in a stable democracy (at least as of yet) but it did remove a thug from power and left us with factions that all view the US positively. (incidentally I thought the worst thing that happened was the Kadaffi. The loss of him robbed the Libyan people of the reminder of what they fought against and what brought them together.

man, your tag line says it all about your own post. the Libyan factions all view the US positively?

my goodness. I don t know where to start. false assumptions and defense of your party instead of giving a shit about the people who are suffering.

madness

wesw wrote:man, your tag line says it all about your own post. the Libyan factions all view the US positively?

my goodness. I don t know where to start. false assumptions and defense of your party instead of giving a shit about the people who are suffering.

madness

The Main Libyan Factions do view us positively. There are Small groups (like IS) using the the chaos for safe haven i n the country but they have no internal popular support.

that is the wrongest of all wrongheadedly wrong posteses that have ever been posteded.

the sheer wrongitude of that post makes the wrongisphere of wrongness wring its wronged hands and wrongly hang its wrongheaded cranium

The residual forces would have done nothing to solve the systematic problems that led to the collapse of the Iraqi army in the face of IS.

I disagree.

The primary purpose for the residual force was to serve as an "honest broker" between the Shiite dominated central government and the Sunni tribal forces.

The successful "Petraeus Doctrine" that the Administration is now attempting to resurrect... (without of course, Petraeus,... for well, obvious reasons... )

This was the strategy that initially put "Al-Qaeda In Iraq" (the forerunner of ISIS) to rout, and sent them packing over the border into Syria in the first place...

On the Syrian side of this equation, one should recall how the uprising against Assad began...

It wasn't led by the Islamo-fascists; it was led by pro-democracy non-sectarians who found themselves being mowed down in the streets while we were busy with our thumb-sucker non-strategy, "not getting involved" and claiming we couldn't figure out who to support...

And then of course came the hideously mismanaged chemical weapon fiasco that made us look like a complete joke...