Captured sailors

[ex-khobar Andy]

Something about this is very fishy, or else the navigational abilities of the average US sailor is just off-the-charts bad. Or non-existent.

From Kuwait to Bahrain is a straight run -- I have done it by car a few dozen times and once most of the way by sea. It's about 300 miles either way. The ship I was in was probably 20 times the gross tonnage of those little riverine craft and we were never out of sight of the land. Apart from a few rocks there is no need to be more than a few miles from the coast and no way they should have been within 40 miles of Iranian territorial waters. My guess is that it was bravado that went awry -- remember the USAF pilot who thought he would put the sh!ts up some tourists in Italy and killed 20 people by slicing the cable? (1998 -- had to look it up.) The Persian Gulf gyre is a clockwise current system in the northern Persian Gulf which is in your favour for that trip and in fact if you are drifting it would tend to pull you along the coast. Of course that is the prevailing current and local winds on the day may contribute. I looked up the weather in Kuwait for the day -- westerlies, but mostly less than 5 knots. (Wunderground.com is a great site if you are not familiar with it.) Even if it was 10 knot westerlies all along that coast it would take them two or three hours to be blown into Iranian waters around Farsi Island. Someone somewhere is being economical with the truth.

I have spent many happy day on marine survey ships. In 1970 I learned how to navigate a coast using sextants. Then in 75 or so we got Loran which was a radio triangulation system and we could put the sextant back in the museum next to the astrolabe. GPS of course was unheard of. There is no excuse for being that far off course. None. Of course, if you read the blogs it's Obama's fault.

[datsunaholic]

These guys are the evolution of my old Reserve parent command. Back in 1999-2003 I was in an Inshore boat unit (IBU-12) which was a subcommand of NCWG-1 (Naval Coastal Warfare Group 1), which is now Coastal Riverine Group 1, out of San Diego. The Inshore Boat units were decommissioned and became squadrons, and the Inshore and Riverine forces were combined under CRG-1. Plus they became active duty units where we were purely reservist.

When I first saw the headline I thought maybe they were in the Shatt al-Arab river. But then saw they were transiting from Kuwait to Bahrain.

You're right, there's no logical reason for them to have been anywhere near that island. Farsi island is a pinhead in the MIDDLE of the Persian Gulf. Almost dead center. Kuwait and Bahrain are both on the Western shore of the gulf. These were riverine boats, not designed for open-water missions (though they are larger than the Inshore boats I served on, which did operate in unprotected water. Uncomfortably.).

These boats have GPS. Now, when I was on the Inshore boats the GPS were commercial units and weren't loaded with charts outside the US (I think we were lucky to have Puget Sound on ours, they'd been programmed for San Diego). That made the GPS somewhat useless for the middle east when we were there, but it was still good enough to tell you were on course because you could set waypoints.

These guys were WAY off course. More than can be explained by the engine problems (focusing on the engine issue rather than navigating- note that in my unit the boat engineers were also the navigators and radio talkers) but everyone that's qualified crew should be able to read the GPS and the coxswain has the damn thing right in front of him. We had paper charts and we would have heavily marked anywhere we should stay clear of. But with Farsi island so far off the logical course, I dunno. Water kinda looks the same once land disappears.

And the Persian Gulf is not a place to practice your dead reckoning skills.

We had our share of guys who had egos that outstripped their skills, so its not unfathomable that these units do too.

I'll wait for more info to pass judgement, but your right, something doesn't add up with the story.

[Guinevere]

My Swede - former Navy - tends to agree.

How and why they got there is a mystery. I think it's obvious they were released because of the upcoming lifting of the US/EU sanctions. This matters a lot to the Iranian government and they were not willing to put it in jeopardy.

[Lord Jim]

Yeah, they were released after they were paraded in front of cameras for a humiliating propaganda video complete with a coerced "apology" from one of the captive sailors with a Revolutionary Guard thug feeding him lines off stage... (in violation of the Geneva Convention, which prohibits using captive military personnel for propaganda)

Absolutely appalling...

Almost as appalling as our secretary of state bending his knee to "thank" the Iranians after this disgraceful spectacle... (He should have said, "Thank you may I have another")

Since the Administration signed off on the Iran Nuke Cave-in, the Iranians have taken yet another innocent American prisoner, (to add to the others that they have refused to release) violated UN resolutions with a medium range missile test, deliberately fired a rocket close to a US ship in international waters, and now this...

And still no consequences...

They must be laughing their asses off at us. They've got to figure that our government is so desperate not to have this cave-in fall apart, that we'll put up with anything...

I'm sure Vladimir Putin's getting a good chuckle too...

[Econoline]

Some interesting discussion about this over on Jim Wright's (Stonekettle Station) Facebook page. He starts by sharing a post from Adam-Troy Castro:

So, let's summarize. An American boat strayed into what the Iranians considered their territorial waters. They captured our people and told us, pretty much right away, that they would be releasing them in short order. They did just that, within very approximately twenty-four hours. During that time the Obama administration, which had very recently negotiated a treaty with that government that the Iranians did not want endangered, was on top of the situation. Our people were not imprisoned or maltreated. They were released without bloodshed. During that time the Republican party, the conservative media, and the Presidential candidates were screaming that Obama was weak. Turns out that he was just A FUCKING ADULT.

...and then there are a number of interesting and informative posts by others and by Wright himself, commenting on it. (For those of you who don't know, Jim Wright is a retired US Navy Chief Warrant Officer who spent some time in the Gulf; I gather from other stuff he's posted online that his specialty was intel, but--like anyone who actually has served in intel--he's always been a bit coy about the details.)

Here are a smattering of quotes from the comments (note: except for when it's Wright himself replying, I've eliminated the names of the commenters):

JF: Yeah, strayed into Iranian waters, yeah and one boat had mechanical difficulties and the neither had a tow rope, uh huh. A rather gracious response to what appears to be an intel incursion, perhaps to gauge defensive response. Wandered in, drifted in, strayed in, yeah, that's it.

Jim Wright: It was NOT an intel incursion. If it was, it wouldn't have been in these types of boats, and it wouldn't have been in broad daylight and it wouldn't have been necessary anyway.

Ask me how I know.

Jim Wright: Boats break down all of the time. You put metal machines in salt water and beat the shit out of them, they break. Pumps break. Water gets in the fuel line. Seals corrode. Wires break. shit happens. That's why we always take along an engineer.

As to the tow rope. No, they probably DIDN'T have one. It's not common equipment for boats like this. They're generally not rigged for it. And towing at sea with boats like this puts one hell of a strain on the gear. And it's SLOW, maybe too slow to offset the current - of which there's one hell of a set and drift in that part of the Gulf.

Again, ask me how I know.

GW: Jim, Let's just say, yup you're right.

And the CG is always rigged for towing. Just one of the services we offer.

SS: And the Iranians followed exactly the procedures that the U.S. uses when we intercept wartime vessels in U.S. waters.

Sean S: No. We'd have fixed their issue or made it so they could safely get home.

SS: Sean S- Apparently naval experts disagree with you.

Sean S: And yet I find it hilarious how many experts popped out of nowhere.... I question how many were ever near the gulf let alone there. I wonder how many have conducted operations that even remotely close....

Jim Wright: Well, I have.

Jim Wright: And that's what happened. The Iranians did exactly what I would have as a boarding officer. They secured the crews, conducted a search, and when the engineering issue was explained they assisted in repairs and escorted both boats back to US controlled waters as soon as the sun came up.

Honestly, given the status between our two nations, what more would you expect? No, be honest. Iran didn't hold our crews for more than a brief period. They didn't impound the boats. They didn't hurt anybody. They didn't demand anything for releasing our people. Shit, man, I've been treated FAR worse by Louisiana State Troopers, while in uniform.

And you know as well as I do, Sean, that if those Iranian fast movers that were always snooping around Cominsky suffered an engineering casualty and drifted up on the beach in Bahrain, they'd have been treated the same way.

Jim Wright: Shirley, Sean's a navy veteran, just in case you didn't figure that out from the context. He and I served together in the Gulf. Let's ratchet back the personal stuff, thanks.

Sean S: Agreed. We'd fight their fires, fix their equipment, tend medical care and wish them safe navigation.

SC: Jim Wright- You mean there are like, internationally recognized rules and procedures for treating tense situations calmly and professionally, even when you don't really trust or like the other people? Wow - who knew?

NC: I concur with Jim. Also, a sailor with direct experience in the area especially during Earnest Will and Desert Shield.

SB: Please excuse my ignorance but since you both served perhaps you can answer my question. Was there any thing wrong with one of our military people saying "it was our mistake."? Media is making a huge deal out of that and it seems rather innocuous to me. Just call me "Puzzled in Carolina."

Jim Wright: No. I would have probably have done the same thing.

Oops. It was an accident. We ended up in your waters by mistake. Had a problem the the boat. Sorry about that. And the Iranian response? Oh, okay. Here, we'll escort you back to your ships. Have a nice day.

BMA: Saw some nonsense earlier today that implied that they were coerced to say that, because, you know, Obama. Glad you asked and I would like to know what Jim thinks as well.

Jim Wright: Coerced to say WHAT?

Sorry, our mistake? The fuck. The POC didn't say, Hey, Down with the Great Satan America! Fuck Christianity. Allah Akbar! I love Iran!

He said, oops. Our mistake. We take responsibility for it. Because because shit happens. And again, what was the Iranian response? Okay. No problem.

SB: Thank you.

Jim Wright: I love the "because Obama" part. Because Obama what? We got our guys back. We got our boats back. Nobody was hurt. Everybody was treated professionally. Have a nice day?

What, because Obama we didn't get a war? Because Obama we didn't get to bomb somebody? Because Obama we didn't get to trade arms for hostages and fund Contras in the San Salvador? What because Obama. Fuck.

BMA: Jim Wright- Exactly. And that was one of the R talking heads called in on CBS this morning, I think.

BMA: TBH the "because Obama" was my take on it, he didn't actually SAY that.

Jim Wright: Well, General Jack Keane just did. I watched him do it.

SB: I know that I am pretty naïve, but the young man acted like I would expect a soldier to behave, with civility and respect.

BMA: SB- I thought so as well.

Jim Wright: Indeed. Those Sailors did nothing wrong and everything right. They're safe. They're alive. They behaved in accordance with the code of conduct. They brought no dishonor to their country or service. They didn't cause an international incident. AND, AND, as a result the US and Iran - mortal enemies for 40 years - were able to treat each other with civility and reason. Wow. How terrible.

[Big RR]

And most countries would do the same thing to those on any military vessel that came into their territorial waters, if it flew the flag of a country they had substantial "difficulties" with. Of course, I guess you'll just say that' moral equivalency.

They didn't hurt anyone (at least as has been reported), didn't really get any apology (one would think they could have had it live on camera if their coercive methods were any good) and released them quickly. But you demand consequences?

econo--exactly. But it's moral equivalency you're peddling.

[Lord Jim]

Our people were not imprisoned or maltreated.

That Wright character is quite the comedian...

[ex-khobar Andy]

I said earlier:

Of course, if you read the blogs it's Obama's fault.

Sorry, I forgot about LJ.

LJ are you still working on that $20 you owe me? I know I gave you a few years to save up but come on, it's 12 years now and you should be getting close. I have a long memory . . . . Trouble is nowadays I have no short one. If you tell me you sent it to me last week I'll buy it.

And btw there is a typo in my initial post - the PG gyre current system is anti-clockwise. I had it right in my head but wrong on paper.

[Big RR]

I'm sorry Jim, did I miss something? Wouldn't having people kneel down and put their hands behind their heads be SOP for any time a ship (especially a military one where people are likely armed) is boarded. I've seen hostages treated similarly by the police after they are released--one has to protect oneself and check each one for weapons.

It's not like they're being made to walk the plank or being keel-hauled.

[Lord Jim]

LJ are you still working on that $20 you owe me? I know I gave you a few years to save up but come on, it's 12 years now and you should be getting close. I have a long memory . . . .

Were you one of the people who took me up on the Bush getting 400 electoral votes in 2004? I thought I had already paid everybody on that, but if you were one of those people, I'll take your word for it.

PM your PayPal email and I'll send it to you. (I'll toss in an extra five and make it 25$ to cover interest...)

I don't have to "save up" for it; I'm pretty sure I make more money than you do.

[Lord Jim]

I'm sorry Jim, did I miss something? Wouldn't having people kneel down and put their hands behind their heads be SOP for any time a ship (especially a military one where people are likely armed) is boarded. I've seen hostages treated similarly by the police after they are released--one has to protect oneself and check each one for weapons.

It's not like they're being made to walk the plank or being keel-hauled.

I guess you don't see the part about this being videotaped and broadcast constituting mistreatment...

Seems pretty obvious to me...

[Big RR]

I don't and it is often done. I presume your description of the Geneva Convention is correct, but I am not certain if it applies. And if it does, I think the ban is more against parading the prisoners through the center of town where they can be spit at, have things thrown at them, etc., than video taping and broadcast.

[wesw]

china just announced that they are beginning production of their next generation riverine boats , with amazing technology....

I hope we at least put a bug in the boats computers to infect their computers when they download all our info....

fishy fishy fishy....... and I know fishy....

[Econoline]

...humiliating propaganda video complete with a coerced "apology" from one of the captive sailors with a Revolutionary Guard thug feeding him lines off stage...

"Humiliating"????? What would they have to feel "humiliated" about?

Those Sailors did nothing wrong and everything right. They're safe. They're alive. They behaved in accordance with the code of conduct. They brought no dishonor to their country or service. They didn't cause an international incident. AND, AND, as a result the US and Iran - mortal enemies for 40 years - were able to treat each other with civility and reason. Wow. How terrible.

The Iranians did exactly what I would have as a boarding officer. They secured the crews, conducted a search, and when the engineering issue was explained they assisted in repairs and escorted both boats back to US controlled waters as soon as the sun came up.

Honestly, given the status between our two nations, what more would you expect? No, be honest. Iran didn't hold our crews for more than a brief period. They didn't impound the boats. They didn't hurt anybody. They didn't demand anything for releasing our people. Shit, man, I've been treated FAR worse by Louisiana State Troopers, while in uniform.

[Econoline]

Let's say you're coming home from a party in the middle of the night and drunkenly stumble into the neighbor's house. When the owner of the house confronts you, do you (1) sheepishly say "Oops, sorry, my bad" and get out of there as quickly as possible... or (b) belligerently bellow "OH YEAH? SO WHAT? WHADDAYA GONNA DO ABOUT IT???"

[oldr_n_wsr]

b)
Been there, done that.

[rubato]

I'm sorry Jim, did I miss something? Wouldn't having people kneel down and put their hands behind their heads be SOP for any time a ship (especially a military one where people are likely armed) is boarded. I've seen hostages treated similarly by the police after they are released--one has to protect oneself and check each one for weapons.

It's not like they're being made to walk the plank or being keel-hauled.

LJ is complaining because it was a really tough game of 'sharia says'. Someone had just said "Sharia says, face Mecca" and they didn't know it was SW.


yrs,
rubato

[MajGenl.Meade]

That's a good one, rubato.

I saw a Fox talking head woman ranting and raving about how the female sailor was "forced" to wear a headscarf and therefore was humiliated, violated, practically mentally raped and murdered. Also the crew was shown having to SIT ON A FLOOR! And then they had to LEAN THEIR BACKS AGAINST A WALL. And one of the sailors was coerced into saying 'THE IRANIANS HAVE BEEN JOLLY NICE AND HAVEN'T SHOT ANYONE AT ALL YET'. How dare they! What cruelty!

And they had to put their hands on their heads while the Iranians TOOK THEIR WEAPONS! TOOK THEIR WEAPONS!

It was a disgusting performance by that section of the media. Storm in a teacup and, even worse, just a bunch of hogwash.

[Big RR]

Now, now Meade; enough of this moral equivalence. When those SOBs do it, it's an act of barbarism; if we do it, it would be an example of our extraordinary restraint. Brought to you by Jeanne Kirkpatrick.

[Bicycle Bill]

Our people were not imprisoned or maltreated.

That Wright character is quite the comedian...

Being made to kneel with their hands behind their heads is mistreatment?
Then you probably think that sending a kid to go stand in the corner is child abuse.

-"BB"-