Plan B Forum

Posted: **Sat Sep 17, 2016 6:04 am**

Third Party Candidates' Poll Numbers Too Low, Fail To Make The Cut

An unexpected side effect of this election cycle having come down to a "Who Hates Whom More?" mentality is that any and all of the side players have been dismissed as insignificant and shunted off the stage into political oblivion ... and I am as guilty of it as anyone. Don't get me wrong. I still think Trump is low enough that he could walk upright under a snake's belly while wearing a stovepipe hat and fully intend to vote for Hillary, but we as an informed electorate need to hear from someone other than the two major players. And since we still enjoy a secret ballot we have the ability to say one thing and then do another, and it's all perfectly legitimate to do so.

Remember, talking to a public opinion pollster is not signing a contract or legally binding in any other way. When November 8th rolls around and you are standing in that booth you can mark your ballot however you desire, and the only two who will know how you marked it will be yourself and God. So from now on, if anyone asks I am supporting the Libertarians and their candidate, Gary Johnson, and I humbly suggest that others do the same no matter who they may be actually intending to vote for. This will serve at least two purposes:

1) It will hopefully raise the Libertarian and Green Party candidates' poll numbers to a high enough level that they may be invited to the remaining debates, and
2) Because they will see their own poll numbers erode, it will scare the crap out of Hillary and The Donald.

-"BB"-

Posted: **Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:33 am**

i respectfully disagree, Bill. If the Republican primary debates showed anything, they showed that the more "debaters" are on stage, the better for Herr Drumpf. With just him and Hillary there the contrast will be stark, and in Hillary's favor. Face it: the election will not be decided between 152 million eligible citizens, and not even between 3 or 4 parties, but only between 2 individuals--of whom one is clearly inferior by any conceivable standard. The more obvious that becomes, the better.

Posted: **Sat Sep 17, 2016 4:34 pm**

I'm not much for conspiracy theories, but it seems to me that the decision of most polling operations to include both Johnson (whose party just qualified to be on the ballot in all 50 states) and Stein (whose party has no shot at qualifying on 50 ballots) was pretty much the best way to guarantee that Johnson would not be able to hit the 15% qualifying threshold...

There was a time when I wanted Johnson to qualify, because I thought having a third voice in the debates would be interesting...

But I'm no longer "interested" in "interesting"...

My sole "interest" at this point is favoring whatever set of circumstances most likely to help prevent the cataclysmic disaster of a Trump victory, and I'm of the same opinion as Econo on this; a one-on-one is likely to accomplish this best...

That having been said, Hillary does not have an easy task here, because the bar has been set so low for Trump...

The greatest danger to her and her campaign has to be the possibility that if he can just manage to get through the debate without telling anyone to go fuck themselves, or attacking the mother of a fallen soldier, or doing an impersonation of a disabled person, he's going to come out looking like a winner...

On policy knowledge of course, Hillary will kick his ass seven ways to Sunday. But since everybody expects that, it probably wont be a huge benefit for her. In the primaries, with the exception of the hopeless Ben Carson, (who was every bit as ignorant as Trump) every other person standing on the debate stage knew vastly more about policy than Drumpf, and it didn't matter. In fact in this bizarro alternative reality election cycle, there seems to be a sizeable portion of the electorate that views not knowing anything as a positive...

For Hillary to achieve "victory conditions" in the critical perception contest of the debates what she needs to do is to throw Trump off his game...Especially in the first debate...

Without being too obvious about it, (ie she can't engage in an adolescent snark fest ala Joe Biden's performance in his debate with Paul Ryan) she needs to needle him, to get under his skin, to essentially run a mind game psy op on him...

In order to get him to explode into a red faced snarling stream of consciousness rant that will remind tens of millions of voters all at once of just how fundamentally unfit for the Presidency he is...

If she can somehow goad him into having that kind of defining moment in front of the whole country, then he'll be finished...

If she can't do that, this thing will go right down to the wire...

Posted: **Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:03 pm**

Lord Jim wrote:In order to get him to explode into a red faced snarling stream of consciousness rant that will remind tens of millions of voters all at once of just how fundamentally unfit for the Presidency he is...

If she can somehow goad him into having that kind of defining moment in front of the whole country, then he'll be finished...

For over a year now we have been treated to videos from his campaign rallies that show exactly that, and it doesn't seem to have "finished" Trump in any manner. There is apparently some significant portion of the electorate for whom ignorant jackassery and brain-dead belligerence are not disqualifying factors. And among Trump supporters in particular there is an extraordinarily high level of sheer idiocy:

Politics
Poll: Two-Thirds of Trump Backers Think Obama Is Muslim
Supporters of the likely GOP nominee surveyed on conspiracy theories

Two-thirds of voters with a favorable opinion of Donald Trump believe President Barack Obama is a Muslim, and a quarter of them believe that Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia was murdered, a poll released Tuesday shows.

The Public Policy Polling survey showed 59 percent of those who said they viewed the presumptive Republican presidential nominee favorably think Obama was not born in the United States and only 13 percent believe he’s a Christian.

PPP asked questions on several conspiracy theories, given Trump's history of pushing some of them. Trump told conservative radio host Michael Savage in February that it was “pretty unusual” that Scalia had “a pillow on his face” when he was found dead.

Among other theories the poll surveyed, 27 percent of Trump supporters said they think vaccines cause autism and 7 percent thought Sen. Ted Cruz 's father was involved in the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, as Trump claimed last week .

And Trump famously supported the so-called “birther” movement during Obama's 2012 re-election run, claiming for weeks that he had proof that Obama wasn't born in the U.S. When Obama eventually released his long-form birth certificate, Trump claimed credit for getting the president to do so.

The New York billionaire told CNN in July that he still didn't know where Obama was born.

Five percent of those with a favorable opinion of Trump said they believe Cruz is the Zodiac Killer, a long-running Internet meme which compares images of Cruz with those of police sketches of the serial killer who terrorized Northern California in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Three-quarters of Trump backers rejected that idea.

Public Policy Polling conducted the survey of 1,222 registered voters between May 6 and 9. The margin of error was 3.2 percent.

Source: Roll Call

As for this:

Lord Jim wrote: But I'm no longer "interested" in "interesting"...

My sole "interest" at this point is favoring whatever set of circumstances most likely to help prevent the cataclysmic disaster of a Trump victory

I'm with you on that. And I'd like to think that's the view of every patriotic American with a moderately functional frontal lobe. As one commentator said last week, Hillary was far short on the percentage of Trump voters who are deplorable:

Opinion: Hillary is Wrong. 100 Percent of Trump Voters are Deplorable

by Stephen A. Nuño

Hillary Clinton far undershot her estimate that only 25 percent of Trump supporters were deplorable. There are two easy facts about Trump supporters that are beyond dispute; they are either racist misogynists, or they are willing to vote for a racist misogynist. Hillary Clinton was forced to retract a sentiment that cut deep into the delicate ego of Trump supporters, who up until now have reveled in Donald Trump's famous call to "stop being politically correct".

But political correctness up until this point meant degrading Mexicans as rapists. Ending political correctness meant calling for the punishment of women for exercising their right to make decisions about their own bodies. Ending political correctness for Trump means mocking people with disabilities. Ending political correctness meant calling for registering Muslims in a collective presumption of guilt and unAmericanness not seen since the McCarthy era. Trump's proof that Muslims were unAmerican was a flat out fabrication, saying that Muslims were dancing in the streets when the World Trade Center fell on 9-11. Trump has retracted none of these statements.

Trump surrogates were excoriated this week for Trump's leadership and continued refusal to apologize for questioning the legitimacy of President Obama through the "birther movement" Trump helped to orchestrate.

Trump continues to praise Vladimir Putin, and doubled down by going on state-sponsored Russian Television repeating his admiration for him. But nowhere is there any apology from Trump for his outlandish behavior. Instead, Trump supporters like Rudy Giuliani are defending him.

After this week's Commander in Chief town hall event, male commentators and politicians said that Hillary Clinton's performance was a "draw" with Trump, not because she did not answer the questions, as Trump failed to do, but because she was "too detailed."

The head of the Republican National Committee, Reince Preibus, said that Hillary Clinton was unqualified for Commander in Chief because she did not smile. Rudy Giuliani said at a rally that Hillary Clinton's answers were too "long".

And once again, the media is failing to understand what "political correctness" in America really means.

"Political correctness" - Trump style - means ensuring safe spaces for racists and and white-male supremacy, and wrapping their rhetoric in the flag by calling it "freedom of speech", while participating in the continued assault on womanhood and the rights of minorities in the name of equal time.

Hillary Clinton's regret is merely one of saying the truth even when understating the problem. There is no debate as to whether or not Trump voters are ok with racism. It is the centerpiece of his campaign.

Every voter who supports him is okay with that, and the media continues to ignore this point. That is deplorable.

Stephen A. Nuño is a regular contributor to NBC Latino.

Source: NBC Latino

Posted: **Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:33 pm**

Sue U wrote:
Politics
Poll: Two-Thirds of Trump Backers Think Obama Is Muslim
Supporters of the likely GOP nominee surveyed on conspiracy theories

Two-thirds of voters with a favorable opinion of Donald Trump believe President Barack Obama is a Muslim, and a quarter of them believe that Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia was murdered, a poll released Tuesday shows.

The Public Policy Polling survey showed 59 percent of those who said they viewed the presumptive Republican presidential nominee favorably think Obama was not born in the United States and only 13 percent believe he’s a Christian.

PPP asked questions on several conspiracy theories, given Trump's history of pushing some of them. Trump told conservative radio host Michael Savage in February that it was “pretty unusual” that Scalia had “a pillow on his face” when he was found dead.

Among other theories the poll surveyed, 27 percent of Trump supporters said they think vaccines cause autism and 7 percent thought Sen. Ted Cruz 's father was involved in the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, as Trump claimed last week .

And Trump famously supported the so-called “birther” movement during Obama's 2012 re-election run, claiming for weeks that he had proof that Obama wasn't born in the U.S. When Obama eventually released his long-form birth certificate, Trump claimed credit for getting the president to do so.

The New York billionaire told CNN in July that he still didn't know where Obama was born.

Five percent of those with a favorable opinion of Trump said they believe Cruz is the Zodiac Killer, a long-running Internet meme which compares images of Cruz with those of police sketches of the serial killer who terrorized Northern California in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Three-quarters of Trump backers rejected that idea.

Public Policy Polling conducted the survey of 1,222 registered voters between May 6 and 9. The margin of error was 3.2 percent.

Source: Roll Call

Education. The GOP needs to encourage better education among their voters.

yrs,
rubato

Posted: **Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:22 am**

rubato wrote: Education. The GOP needs to encourage better education among their voters.

yrs,
rubato

Not really. If they were better educated, they'd all be Libertarians.

-"BB"-

Posted: **Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:55 am**

Nah if they were better educated Libritarians would realize thier policies are moth morally bankrupt and completely unworkable

Posted: **Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:29 pm**

Crackpot wrote:Nah if they were better educated Libritarians would realize thier policies are moth morally bankrupt and completely unworkable

Well, that's because they try to be both right wing and left wing. But at least they are attracted to the light side.

Posted: **Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:29 pm**

I'm not sure where I'd place their stance on civil liberties; it's certainly not left or right wing--both sides would seek to restrict the civil liberties of people in the name of order or safety (take your pick).

Posted: **Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:57 pm**

Bicycle Bill wrote:
rubato wrote: Education. The GOP needs to encourage better education among their voters.

yrs,
rubato
Not really. If they were better educated, they'd all be Libertarians.

-"BB"-

Libertarianism as it exists in political philosophy is a moral theory disguised as a theory of government. You can prove this by the fact that within Libertarianism it is not a legitimate criticism that a given policy will have harmful outcomes, the only allowable criticism is whether it supports libertarian principles.

Libertarianism as it exists in the popular sphere is a mixture of unexamined ideas unrelated to the above. More a 'flavor' of liberalism than a coherent theory.

Libertarianism calls for the total abolition of social security, Medicare, free public education. It calls for the abolition of any immigration controls, most environmental regulation, and all laws restricting contracts except to exclude coercion by physical force. They cannot even derive justification within Libertarian orthodoxy for zoning laws to prevent someone from building a slaughterhouse in a residential neighborhood.

So I think it is unlikely than many educated people would support it. Even Nozick abandoned his Libertarian principles when it was in his interest to do so.

Yrs,
Rubato

Posted: **Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:03 pm**

Big RR, you need to read CP's quoted post a little more carefully.....

Posted: **Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:18 pm**

Have I mentioned lately how much I fucking hate autocorrect?

Posted: **Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:41 pm**

Ouch--sorry CP.

Plan B Forum

Johnson, Stein not invited to Candidate Debates

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