Plan B Forum

Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont says the Spanish region has won the right to statehood following a contentious referendum that was marred by violence.



He said the door had been opened to a unilateral declaration of independence.

Catalan officials later said 90% of those who voted backed independence in Sunday's vote. The turnout was 42.3%.



Spain's constitutional court had declared the poll illegal and hundreds of people were injured as police used force to try to block voting.

Officers seized ballot papers and boxes at polling stations.



"With this day of hope and suffering, the citizens of Catalonia have won the right to an independent state in the form a republic," Mr Puigdemont said in a televised address flanked by other senior Catalan leaders.

"My government, in the next few days will send the results of today's vote to the Catalan parliament, where the sovereignty of our people lies, so that it can act in accordance with the law of the referendum."

He said the European Union could no longer "continue to look the other way".


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41463719

Catalan separatist urges unity as pressure builds in Spain

BARCELONA, Spain

One of Catalonia's top separatist leaders called for unity Saturday as disputes over strategy threatened to divide those who want the northeastern region to split away from Spain.

Catalonia's regional vice president Oriol Junqueras said separatists need to stop bickering and get behind the last-ditch effort by Catalonia's president to negotiate with Spain's central government.

"We must preserve the unity that is necessary to go all the way on this path to a republic," Junqueras said. "We must reiterate our belief in unity, in unity behind our government and the majority of the parliament."

That decision disappointed many diehard separatists who want the prosperous northeastern region of 7.5 million people to leave Spain. The far-left party CUP and the main grassroots secessionist group, National Catalan Assembly, have both asked Puigdemont not to wait any longer.

Junqueras delivered his message to 200 members of his Republic Left party at its headquarters in Barcelona. The party forms a governing coalition with Puigdemont's conservatives in Catalonia's regional parliament and its allegiance is critical to the secessionist drive.

Junqueras said the best way forward was for secessionists to show "the world who it is who wants to offer dialogue and who rejects it."

Spain's government has also warned that the constitutional crisis in Catalonia is already hurting the economy.

Puigdemont claimed he has a mandate for secession after the "Yes" vote for independence won a referendum Oct. 1 that Spain's top court had suspended on grounds it's likely unconstitutional. Only 43 percent of the eligible voters cast ballots amid a brutal Spanish police crackdown. Parties against secession boycotted the vote.

The European Union supports a united Spain and no foreign country is behind Catalonia's separatists.

liberty wrote:... I believe that is what member on this board like Sue believe.

... !

What right do they have to claim independence from Spain; is Spain federal system? If they have no right to separate from Spain then they are traitors and the sovereign government of Spain has the right to execute them for treason.

dales wrote:What "right" did the American colonies have to fight for independence from England?

Barcelona played their La Liga match against Las Palmas in an empty stadium on Sunday as the backdrop of the referendum on Catalonian independence loomed.

Barcelona made the announcement that doors would be closed for the match just minutes before kickoff, citing safety concerns, with thousands of fans already waiting outside Camp Nou Stadium.

In the statement released by the club, Barcelona criticized La Liga for refusing to allow the game to be postponed and denounced the actions of the Spanish police, who had clashed with citizens in the lead-up to the vote.

Econoline wrote:

dales wrote:What "right" did the American colonies have to fight for independence from England?

• We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

A Spanish judge has remanded two key members of the Catalan independence movement in jail.
Jordi Sánchez, who heads the Catalan National Assembly (ANC), and Jordi Cuixart, leader of Omnium Cultural, are being held without bail while they are under investigation for sedition.
The men are seen as leading figures in organising a 1 October independence vote, which Spanish courts suspended.

rubato wrote:

liberty wrote:... I believe that is what member on this board like Sue believe.

... !

I would urge you never to wager money on your ability to guess what someone else is thinking or believes

yrs,
rubato

Big RR wrote:Well Sue can speak for herself, but as I recall treason involves an overt act of making war against the US; I'm not certain just declaring independence as the Catalanians have done, would sufficient for treason if it were in the US; firing on fort sumpter is something different.

Big RR wrote:I have no idea what the Spanish constitution says or what the limit of self rule is, but I would hope merely saying we will resist the decree of the national government is not sufficient to constitute treason. As to where the rights to self govern arises, that is as much a philosophical question as a legal one--does it arise from the divine right of the monarch to grant it, the right of the parliament to enact laws, of the consent of the people? What the Spanish view on this is, I really do not know, but I know what my view is.

liberty wrote:

Big RR wrote:Well Sue can speak for herself, but as I recall treason involves an overt act of making war against the US; I'm not certain just declaring independence as the Catalanians have done, would sufficient for treason if it were in the US; firing on fort sumpter is something different.

And, providing aid and comfort to the enemy as Jane Fonda did. (just curious — what's the difference between what she did and what Dennis Rodman did in visiting Kim Jong Un's Korea; not just once but several times?)

It appears to me what the Spanish authorities are trying to do at the moment is to prevent a war. But if it comes to war they have the right to kill everyone that resist their rule; they are sovereign not the locals. To resist the will of the sovereign is treason (actually, the term you want is lèse majesté). In their system there is no shared sovereignty. Some areas may have self-rule, but where does it come from; what big daddy gives big daddy can take back.

rubato wrote:
A self-proclaimed right then.

Burke and Bentham would both say that no such right can exist.

yrs,
rubato