Plan B Forum

In an absurd display of political theater, Pence flew to the Colts 49ers game yesterday, then abruptly left when some players kneeled during the Star Spangled Banner. I don't want to get back into the discussion of the protest and what should be done, but I am concerned about his wasting government money to go to a game he had no intention of even watching. Come on, pretty much anyone could have predicted some players would kneel, and yet he flew on a private jet at government expense and then was transported by limo (also at government expense) so he could do this bit of political play acting. IF he wanted to spend his own money to paly this game, fine, but in a time when we are running deficits, when we have serious expenses due for hurricane damage, this waste of money is not justifiable. the man is a pompous ass, not that I'm surprised.

Next week he is going to 6 flags frightfest so he can storm out to protest how these displays support satan.




I am shocked....shocked that there is kneeling during the national anthem at an NFL game

Pence -- looking quite cadaverous.


Similar thought found within... $250,000 for a horribly orchestrated, political, publicity stunt.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politic ... -1.3549378

Big RR wrote:



I am shocked....shocked that there is kneeling during the national anthem at an NFL game

I see what you did there Big RR: Casablanca = White House. Very clever.

Had he gone to the Titans - Dolphins game, Pence would of course have seen the Miami Offensive Line coach Chris Foerster standing for the National Anthem with his hand on his heart. Clearly he must be an OK guy and the allegation that he sends tapes of himself snorting a white substance to a Las Vegas stripper while professing love must be fake news. I therefore don't believe it for a second and I am confident that he will fight to clear his name of this baseless calumny.

Shouldn't that military guy behind Pence (in Ray's pic) be either saluting or hand on heart? He is doing neither so he is clearly a commie pinko of the worst sort. And then the two behind Pence's left shoulder appear to be confused. It's worth noting that the left (sinister) shoulder is where the devil usually appears: so take what you will from that. I agree with Ray that Pence is looking a little cadaverous, so clearly the devil(s) are in a fight for his soul when it becomes available.

If you go too the official Congressionally-madated flag protocol, you find all kinds of specific instructions. But it all says MEN!. Clearly the more fragile, weaker sex is left helpless with no guidance as to what they should do in such circumstances. This explains the photo posted earlier with the wonderfully patriotic woman wearing a bulky 'uncle sam' hat firmly on her head while holding a small flag at her waist level in each hand, while others are standing, bareheaded, and hand over heart..

It is a sad, sad time we live in. I suggest we all retire in privacy and read carefully the War Prayer by Mark Twain, followed perhaps by the slightly longer treatise by General Smedly Butler, frequently published with the War Prayer.

snailgate

So...he protested a protest at a football game by staging a protest at a football game.

• 

Edit: image fixed (I think). Apparently there are some things that are easy to do on a real computer that are well nigh impossible on an Android tablet.

Your image is FUBAR.

Fixed. Sorry.

I am concerned about his wasting government money to go to a game he had no intention of even watching. Come on, pretty much anyone could have predicted some players would kneel, and yet he flew on a private jet at government expense and then was transported by limo (also at government expense) so he could do this bit of political play acting.

That's the part of this I also find really objectionable about this...

The cost of flying Air Force Two from Las Vegas — where Pence on Saturday attended a memorial event for victims of the shooting there last week — to Indianapolis was roughly $100,000, CNN reported.

After his early exit from the game, he flew to Los Angeles to attend a Monday fundraiser for Republican Rep. Dana Rohrabacher; that flight cost about $142,500, CNN reported.

That almost $250,000 expenditure does not account for the costs of advance personnel or Secret Service security measures at the Colts' stadium ahead of the appearance. It also does not take into account the costs of Pence's hotel room in Indianapolis and any additional security measures there.

As CNN reported, some of the costs of the flight from Indianapolis to Los Angeles will be reimbursed by the Republican National Committee, since he's attending a political event.

http://www.businessinsider.com/how-much ... rs-2017-10

Costs for the Indianapolis trip should also be reimbursed by the RNC, because that trip was also clearly a "political event" . I'd really like to see some of the GOP "budget hawks" on The Hill standing up and calling for this.

From Facebook:

• Pence and the Colts-49ers game.
  
  The math.
  
  Because, duh. I do math.
  
  The game started at 1 PM.
  
  1) Football games last an average of 3 hours, 12 minutes. This particular game was going to have a retiring of Peyton Manning's jersey as well, so it would have been longer (It was actually even longer than that, because it went into overtime, but they could not have known that before hand). So, 3 1/2 hours
  
  4:30, Indianapolis time.
  
  2) It's an hour drive from Lucas Oil Field to the Indianapolis airport.
  
  5:30, Indianapolis time.
  
  3) Get to the tarmac, load staff and reporters on the plane, get clearance for take off. At least half an hour.
  
  6:00 PM Indianapolis time.
  
  -------Indianapolis is 3 hours ahead of Los Angeles.
  
  6:00 PM Indianapolis time is 3:00 PM Los Angeles time.
  
  4) Flight time between Indianapolis and Los Angeles is 4 1/2 hours. Pence could not have landed earlier than 7:30 Los Angeles time if he'd stayed in Indianapolis for the whole game.
  
  5) clear the airport and get to private venue for fund raiser in Los Angeles. say - at least 1 hour. 8:30 Los Angeles TIme.
  
  His fund raiser in LA was scheduled for 6:30 PM. At best, if he'd stayed for the entire football game, he would have been 2 hours late for his fund raiser in LA.
  
  Conclusion. Pence never planned on staying for the Colt-49ers game at all. It was all a planned optic.

Follow-up post from the same person in the same Facebook thread:

• Now, it's possible the motorcade could have shaved off half an hour getting to the airport in Indianapolis. But the transit times (load in and out of the airplane of his staff and reporters) I assumed to be half hour each. I doubt it would be that quick.
  
  He would have been at the very least 1.5 hours late for his fund raiser. And that would have him and 'mother' changing in the plane.

ex-khobar Andy wrote:Shouldn't that military guy behind Pence (in Ray's pic) be either saluting or hand on heart? He is doing neither so he is clearly a commie pinko of the worst sort. And then the two behind Pence's left shoulder appear to be confused. It's worth noting that the left (sinister) shoulder is where the devil usually appears: so take what you will from that. I agree with Ray that Pence is looking a little cadaverous, so clearly the devil(s) are in a fight for his soul when it becomes available.

As I recall, military members do not salute unless wearing a hat...if not wearing a hat, the proper thing is to stand at attention, which he is.

Jarlaxle wrote:

ex-khobar Andy wrote:Shouldn't that military guy behind Pence (in Ray's pic) be either saluting or hand on heart? He is doing neither so he is clearly a commie pinko of the worst sort. And then the two behind Pence's left shoulder appear to be confused. It's worth noting that the left (sinister) shoulder is where the devil usually appears: so take what you will from that. I agree with Ray that Pence is looking a little cadaverous, so clearly the devil(s) are in a fight for his soul when it becomes available.

As I recall, military members do not salute unless wearing a hat...if not wearing a hat, the proper thing is to stand at attention, which he is.

I am certainly willing to be corrected by people who know much more than I do about military matters Jarl so I appreciate your comment. I don't know what uniform he is wearing - might be police or National Guard for all I know. But the relevant section of USC reads:

SEC. 595. MILITARY SALUTE FOR THE FLAG DURING THE NATIONAL ANTHEM
BY MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES NOT IN
UNIFORM AND BY VETERANS.

Section 301(b)(1) of title 36, United States Code, is amended by
striking subparagraphs (A) through (C) and inserting the following new
subparagraphs:
``(A) individuals in uniform should give the
military salute at the first note of the anthem and
maintain that position until the last note;
``(B) members of the Armed Forces and veterans who
are present but not in uniform may render the military
salute in the manner provided for individuals in
uniform; and
``(C) all other persons present should face the flag
and stand at attention with their right hand over the
heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should
remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it
at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart;

Note: Part (C) applies to those not in the military and non-veterans. The phrase "men not in uniform" refers to civil service uniforms like police, fire fighters, and letter carriers - non-veteran civil servants who might normally render a salute while in uniform.

As I have said before, if I am present at an event where the NA is played, I stand quietly. I do not have my hand over my heart as I am not a citizen; and I think that if I do mimic the pose of a citizen I am in some way disrespecting the flag, in the same way that if I am attending a church service I will not take the Mass because if I do, I think I am insulting those who chose to do so. I am not sure, but maybe I am included in Part C above ('All other persons' does not seem to provide me with a get-out) so maybe I need to change my ways.

I never put my hand over my heart; indeed, until recently I never even saw it--people just stood, some sang, and the drunks t4ried to change the words to favor their team (talk about disrespect--but then those who claim offense don't want to talk about that). Hand over the heart was for the pledge of allegiance (at least since Hitler came to power and we got rid of the Nazi salute--you can still see it in old movies and my mom and dad talked about saluting the flag that way when they were young).

The sad thing about this dispute is that it's relatively benign--those protesting kneel and remain respectfully silent, and yet they somehow offend people. if they Odell Beckham and lifted their legs or mooned the flag in protest I might understand the offense, but they don't do that, nor do they do anything overtly disrespectful.

Andy's discussion of church is pretty much on point; I was brought up in a religion that did not kneel and I have never done so in church. When I go to a roman catholic church there is a kneeling in part of the liturgy and I refrain from kneeling (not because I think it is wrong to do so, but more because I do not believe as should as it would be an empty gesture based on my beliefs); instead I sit respectfully, moving forward in my seat so the people behind me lean on the back of the seat. I can understand how some might be slightly bothered by my not kneeling, but I am in no way being disrespectful to the custom or their beliefs, just acknowledging that mine are different and that both are worthy of respect. I think this is a lot like what the kneeling athletes are doing, staying true to their own beliefs, but still being respectful to the beliefs of others who believe differently.

Big RR, I note very respectfully you distinguish between the current controversy at sporting events and your personal conduct at an overtly religious ceremony. At the Roman Catholic services, people around you respect your personal differences, and let you respect their's with no outward demonstration of conflict.

"sad thing about this dispute is that it's relatively benign--those protesting kneel and remain respectfully silent, and yet they somehow offend people. if they Odell Beckham and lifted their legs or mooned the flag in protest I might understand the offense, but they don't do that, nor do they do anything overtly disrespectful."

This goes IMNSHO, to the real religion in American--sport. The major denomination is the NFL. This American religion, like most of the others, is dominated by the impact of Fundamentalism, which includes a low tolerance for differences.

And by the way, the man in uniform next to Pence is in the current Army uniform. I don't know the differences and variations now well enough to even say for say for sure his branch, let alone his rank. It could be State National Guard; I have no idea why he has no head cover. Peculiar enough that his right sleeve has two 'hershey bars', indicating 2x6 months in a combat zone, but no unit emblem at the top of his right sleeve indicating what the combat unit was.

snailgate

Burning Petard wrote:And by the way, the man in uniform next to Pence is in the current Army uniform. I don't know the differences and variations now well enough to even say for say for sure his branch, let alone his rank. It could be State National Guard; I have no idea why he has no head cover. Peculiar enough that his right sleeve has two 'hershey bars', indicating 2x6 months in a combat zone, but no unit emblem at the top of his right sleeve indicating what the combat unit was.

snailgate

For Pete's sake, he's wearing a name plate over his rh pocket.  Someone who can fine-tune the image should have no trouble figuring out just who this dude is.
I enlarged the picture 3x and though it was fuzzy it looks like a 4-letter name like FARR or CARR or something similar. Even that should be a giveaway for anyone who knows anything about Pence's AF2 staff or VP travel entourage.

-"BB"-

If I'm not mistaken, the large gold braid on the jacket sleeves indicates he is a general; I think he may be this guy

http://www.nationalguard.mil/portals/31 ... /2273.html

eta: As for his lack of a hat, as I recall from my old army days, a cover should be worn outdoors and removed indoors; there was some discussion about whether being under a permanent cover (like in a stadium) should be treated as outdoors or indoors, and the general rule was that you could leave your cover off if others around you (military and civilian) were not wearing hats--my guess is this is why he did not have a hat on.

Yes it's Maj Gen Courtney Carr, Adjutant General of the Indiana National Guard. I was curious and followed up on the hat rules (sorry, cover rules) and found this. Apparently, CDC (yes, that CDC) gets to define what is inside and what is outside for the purpose of cover-wearing. Who knew it could be so complicated?

And from the Pirates of Penzance


MABEL: (coming forward) Hold, monsters! Ere your pirate
caravanserai
Proceed, against our will, to wed us all,
Just bear in mind that we are Wards in Chancery,
And father is a Major-General!

SAMUEL: (cowed) We'd better pause, or danger may befall,
Their father is a Major-General.

GIRLS: Yes, yes; he is a Major-General! (The MAJOR-
GENERAL has entered unnoticed, on the rock)

GENERAL: Yes, yes, I am a Major-General!



SAMUEL: For he is a Major-General!

ALL: He is!
Hurrah for the Major-General!

GENERAL: And it is, it is a glorious thing
To be a Major-General!

ALL: It is!
Hurrah for the Major-General!
Hurrah for the Major-General!

ex-khobar Andy wrote:

Jarlaxle wrote:

ex-khobar Andy wrote:Shouldn't that military guy behind Pence (in Ray's pic) be either saluting or hand on heart? He is doing neither so he is clearly a commie pinko of the worst sort. And then the two behind Pence's left shoulder appear to be confused. It's worth noting that the left (sinister) shoulder is where the devil usually appears: so take what you will from that. I agree with Ray that Pence is looking a little cadaverous, so clearly the devil(s) are in a fight for his soul when it becomes available.

As I recall, military members do not salute unless wearing a hat...if not wearing a hat, the proper thing is to stand at attention, which he is.

I am certainly willing to be corrected by people who know much more than I do about military matters Jarl so I appreciate your comment. I don't know what uniform he is wearing - might be police or National Guard for all I know. But the relevant section of USC reads:

SEC. 595. MILITARY SALUTE FOR THE FLAG DURING THE NATIONAL ANTHEM
BY MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES NOT IN
UNIFORM AND BY VETERANS.

Section 301(b)(1) of title 36, United States Code, is amended by
striking subparagraphs (A) through (C) and inserting the following new
subparagraphs:
``(A) individuals in uniform should give the
military salute at the first note of the anthem and
maintain that position until the last note;
``(B) members of the Armed Forces and veterans who
are present but not in uniform may render the military
salute in the manner provided for individuals in
uniform; and
``(C) all other persons present should face the flag
and stand at attention with their right hand over the
heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should
remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it
at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart;

Note: Part (C) applies to those not in the military and non-veterans. The phrase "men not in uniform" refers to civil service uniforms like police, fire fighters, and letter carriers - non-veteran civil servants who might normally render a salute while in uniform.

As I have said before, if I am present at an event where the NA is played, I stand quietly. I do not have my hand over my heart as I am not a citizen; and I think that if I do mimic the pose of a citizen I am in some way disrespecting the flag, in the same way that if I am attending a church service I will not take the Mass because if I do, I think I am insulting those who chose to do so. I am not sure, but maybe I am included in Part C above ('All other persons' does not seem to provide me with a get-out) so maybe I need to change my ways.

My brother is a Marine: directly from him, you do not salute unless wearing a cover.