Election 2020

Right? Left? Centre?
Political news and debate.
Put your views and articles up for debate and destruction!
User avatar
Econoline
Posts: 9555
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:25 pm
Location: DeKalb, Illinois...out amidst the corn, soybeans, and Republicans

Re: Election 2020

Post by Econoline »

Crackpot wrote:Why do I have the dread that Marianne Williamson will be the Democratic nominee?
'Cause she's got a great theme song?

People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
God @The Tweet of God

User avatar
Bicycle Bill
Posts: 9014
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:10 pm
Location: Surrounded by Trumptards in Rockland, WI – a small rural village in La Crosse County

Re: Election 2020

Post by Bicycle Bill »

Here's the real truth of politics and elections — and it's been this way for at least fifty years...

Image
Image
-"BB"-
Yes, I suppose I could agree with you ... but then we'd both be wrong, wouldn't we?

rubato
Posts: 14213
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 10:14 pm

Re: Election 2020

Post by rubato »

False equivalence. Bullshit.

User avatar
Econoline
Posts: 9555
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:25 pm
Location: DeKalb, Illinois...out amidst the corn, soybeans, and Republicans

Re: Election 2020

Post by Econoline »

If nothing else, the election of Trump should have proved the dishonesty of the "Both sides are the same" canard.
People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
God @The Tweet of God

User avatar
MajGenl.Meade
Posts: 20699
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Groot Brakrivier
Contact:

Re: Election 2020

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

That Tommy Lee meme from Scooter. Yes, that's about what Trump supporters believe the Democrat party intends to do. And it's not 180 degrees from the truth either. The desire to use draconian measures to force adherence to particular ideas is not restricted to the right.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

User avatar
BoSoxGal
Posts: 18297
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:36 pm
Location: The Heart of Red Sox Nation

Re: Election 2020

Post by BoSoxGal »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:That Tommy Lee meme from Scooter. Yes, that's about what Trump supporters believe the Democrat party intends to do. And it's not 180 degrees from the truth either. The desire to use draconian measures to force adherence to particular ideas is not restricted to the right.
OMG are you insane?! :loon


No, that’s not even close to what the Democrat party intends to do. It’s some fucking levity in a time where every soul crushing day one wakes to another story about some child orphaned by gun violence or some mentally ill person deported to die in the streets of Iraq or some other major environmental protection stripped from our collective wildlife and wildlands and just wanting for one moment to believe we could be even the tiniest bit close to the same level of asshole - but we can’t because those mothetfuckers are EVIL.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

User avatar
Scooter
Posts: 16540
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:04 pm
Location: Toronto, ON

Re: Election 2020

Post by Scooter »

The same was true of Michael Swift's Gay Revolutionary, which years later the rabid reactionary religious right (whether out of dumbfuck stupidity or dishonest malice, to this day I'm not sure which) used as "proof" of the existence of a sinister "gay agenda". I'm guessing the same will be true of the piece that Tommy Lee quoted some day.
"If you don't have a seat at the table, you're on the menu."

-- Author unknown

ex-khobar Andy
Posts: 5418
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2015 4:16 am
Location: Louisville KY as of July 2018

Re: Election 2020

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

BSG: :ok :ok :ok :ok

User avatar
MajGenl.Meade
Posts: 20699
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Groot Brakrivier
Contact:

Re: Election 2020

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

BoSoxGal wrote:OMG are you insane?! :loon
Not at last check (opinions may differ)

1. I stated a fact; that's what some Trump supporters believe Democrats want to do. I'm not a Trump supporter

2. But there is zero moral difference when it comes to demagogues, whether of the left or right. And some on the left are definitely more than willing to force their ideas on others, using the law of course.

People have difficulty seeing that because they believe (honestly) that their ideas are correct. Therefore other peoples' ideas are wrong and should be legislated against.

I laughed at the "Tommy Lee" meme (whoever the hell he is) but question whether it's a good idea to feed the paranoia of Trumpistas . . . and remind those who don't like Trump but are getting heartily fed up with the left that maybe it's time to hit back.

I'm sure fed up with Democrats shouting the odds as to how everyone should be agreeing with them at all times and anyone who doesn't toe their particular line is insane. It makes it much harder to decide who to vote for in 2020 - I held my nose and voted for Clinton in 2016. I'm not so sure I could do it again, given the current leftist whining. Have to hope (oh I do hope) Donald doesn't get nominated.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

ex-khobar Andy
Posts: 5418
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2015 4:16 am
Location: Louisville KY as of July 2018

Re: Election 2020

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

You're being a little disingenuous, Meade.
I stated a fact; that's what some Trump supporters believe Democrats want to do. I'm not a Trump supporter
True. But you went on to say:
And it's not 180 degrees from the truth either.
178 degrees? OK I could live with that.
The desire to use draconian measures to force adherence to particular ideas is not restricted to the right.
There are nitwits on the left. But I do not see a very substantial minority of the country (say 43%, to coin a number) approving an agenda anything like the one described by Mr Lee nor do I see the entire (well, almost) Democratic Party falling cravenly into line behind someone with that platform.

User avatar
Scooter
Posts: 16540
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:04 pm
Location: Toronto, ON

Re: Election 2020

Post by Scooter »

Image
"If you don't have a seat at the table, you're on the menu."

-- Author unknown

User avatar
BoSoxGal
Posts: 18297
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:36 pm
Location: The Heart of Red Sox Nation

Re: Election 2020

Post by BoSoxGal »

I held my nose and voted for Clinton in 2016. I'm not so sure I could do it again, given the current leftist whining. Have to hope (oh I do hope) Donald doesn't get nominated.
Are you saying that there is some - ANY - circumstance in which you would vote for Trump in 2020?
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

User avatar
MajGenl.Meade
Posts: 20699
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Groot Brakrivier
Contact:

Re: Election 2020

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

ex-khobar Andy wrote:But I do not see a very substantial minority of the country (say 43%, to coin a number) approving an agenda anything like the one described by Mr Lee nor do I see the entire (well, almost) Democratic Party falling cravenly into line behind someone with that platform.
Nor do I - that would be riddickerluss. (The Chick-fil-A idea was the one that really had me laughing). "Not 180 degrees" is meant to indicate that what the chap wrote is NOT the utter negation of the general idea behind the satirical excess. The general idea is that the left seeks dominance of their ideology over all others (as do all ideologies) as much as any right-wing ideology. So we see "sanctuary" cities in defiance of U.S. law for example. If one illegality is excused by liberals on the sole ground that it comports with their ideas of rightness, then why not warp the law in other ways, as long as an agenda is served? We see that happening with Trump - but there (of course) it's not OK.

BSG - oh, that would be worse than desperate times! I guess if he's running against Pol Pot, I'd go with the devil I know. What are the chances of Pol Pot being nominated - or Bernie Sanders? [I'm not content with our Veep either; yech!]
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

User avatar
RayThom
Posts: 8604
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:38 pm
Location: Longwood Gardens PA 19348

Election 2020

Post by RayThom »

What are the chances of Pol Pot being nominated - or Bernie Sanders? [I'm not content with our Veep either; yech!]"
Pol Pol has been dead for over 20 years. Bernie Sanders? Not so much. Pence? Has no detectable vital signs so it's hard to tell.

None of the above will be nominated.

Image
Image
“In a world whose absurdity appears to be so impenetrable, we simply must reach a greater degree of understanding among us, a greater sincerity.” 

Big RR
Posts: 14048
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:47 pm

Re: Election 2020

Post by Big RR »

[quote]If one illegality is excused by liberals on the sole ground that it comports with their ideas of rightness, then why not warp the law in other ways, as long as an agenda is served?/quote]

Meade--do you honestly believe that? Do you really believe we are constrained to follow all laws regardless of our individual beliefs and morality? I am not saying this law, because the language of your comment makes your belief clear, but should we always obey any law, nor matter how immoral or unjust? I don't think so; do you really answer "yes"? For example, should everyone have complied with the Fugitive Slave Act and not helped slaves flee to Canada? Dred Scott eventually said it applied in all states, but was it wrong to resist it?

and then let's add to the discussion that sanctuary cities are not necessarily illegal; within our system states have the right to conduct their own affairs, and refusal to cooperate with federal authorities is not always illegal--the overzealous executive can always petition the courts if need be. Federal law is not always the winner in these disputes.

User avatar
MajGenl.Meade
Posts: 20699
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Groot Brakrivier
Contact:

Re: Election 2020

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Big RR wrote:Do you really believe we are constrained to follow all laws regardless of our individual beliefs and morality?
Apparently that's the default position of liberals (and loony lefts and loony rights and conservatives) everywhere. Witness the vituperation heaped upon Joe the Baker when he doesn't want to bake a cake advertising homosexuality. And upon all those whose individual beliefs and morality lead them to agree with Joe. Or perhaps consider the hatred directed from the left against Chick-fil-a and that handicraft place, whatever it was. Millions of people are tired of the hectoring from the left, being told what is right (and that they are wrong) and the decay of morality, good manners and the rule of law which they blame in THAT direction. It (IMO) is how Trump overcame normality, sense and courtesy in 2016, although that still makes no sense to me.

I needlessly emphasized illegality; Tommy the Lee's satire (who he?) is more to do with the legal means by which people impose their version of morality etc. on those who do not share the same belief. As stated previously, it's not exclusive to the left. Indeed, I'm often tempted to hope that someone eliminates those who stand in the way of strong gun regulation - which in obvious ways places me in their camp after all, morally speaking.

I hope John Kasich runs - but I doubt he will.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

Big RR
Posts: 14048
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:47 pm

Re: Election 2020

Post by Big RR »

Apples and oranges Meade--you didn't merely emphasize the legal entanglements, the entire thrust of your post had to do with the illegality of actions, especially as regards to sanctuary cities. Now you move to a discussion of people voicing their disapproval of individual actions. If I choose not to patronize chick-fil-a and Hobby Lobby because of the publicly stated positions of their corporate leadership, is that not my right? and if I choose others to encourage do the same, is that not also my right? And face it, at least with Hobby Lobby, just as much of the response to the positions is based in the the USSC-endorsed premise that a corporation can somehow hold religious beliefs; these are not sole proprietorships, and the owners are using the corporate shield laws to limit their personal liability for any harms the businesses do to the public, but then they claim that these same businesses (which they hold to be separate entities when personal liability come into play) somehow still possesses their religious beliefs (and, thus, can choose not to provide insurance coverage for contraceptive services). Many of us believe that such is disingenuous and should not be the law, not because of an agenda but because it makes little sense.

As for " Millions of people are tired of the hectoring from the left, being told what is right (and that they are wrong) and the decay of morality, good manners and the rule of law which they blame in THAT direction",
perhaps you are correct, perhaps not. But is the appropriate answer to tell them to just shut up, or is it to counter their positions with rational arguments? Is it not better to discuss issues rather than to brood and ultimately resort to violence? As for your opinion of the "hectoring" leading to Trump, I agree it makes little sense. Personally, I think Trump(or, more accurately, those pulling his strings--I don't think he has the intellect to hold any political positions) is more insidious than that; Trump takes people who are hurting 9and there were many after the recession who were pretty much left out of the recovery) and gives them someone else to hate--immigrants, moslems, and "others" who have stolen from you. The dems weren't very good in countering this message (because saying "it's not your fault it's their fault because they are stealing your birthright has a real hook for someone in distress); and I'm not sure they're that much better this cycle.

User avatar
MajGenl.Meade
Posts: 20699
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Groot Brakrivier
Contact:

Re: Election 2020

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Big RR wrote:Apples and oranges Meade--you didn't merely emphasize the legal entanglements
a. Yeah, BigRR :roll: I wrote "needlessly", meaning I should not have done that. C on a bicycle.

b. You and I can boycott whatever we like to boycott. You can persuade whoever you wish to join in. How did that come up?

c. So change the personal/corporate liability laws. I don't think it's controversial to assert that some people have an agenda to enforce abortion funding* 100% of the time by 100% of everybody because they want things that way. *this is just one example; I'm not arguing abortion but pushing political positions.

d. I am right - I talk to these people (OK, not "millions" but a fair sample of gob-smacking idiots) and that's how they see it. I certainly don't think Trump is the appropriate response but am beginning (ha!) to sympathize with the discontent. I'm tired of being told what is right and wrong by people I believe to be very wrong indeed. Trump is one end of that spectrum and liberals are at the opposite end.

e. did someone (me?) write anything about telling people to shut up or recommend brooding and resorting to violence? I missed that. I intend voting against the people I wish would shut up. Hence the distaste for what 2020 seems likely to offer.

f. Is Lee's post/Tweet/whatever "rational argument"? Or is it perhaps tending toward "brooding" and "resorting to violence", if only in thought and language? I see bad people on both sides. :lol:

For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

User avatar
Sue U
Posts: 8542
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:59 pm
Location: Eastern Megalopolis, North America (Midtown)

Re: Election 2020

Post by Sue U »

I don't know how to post a tweet here, but this one making the rounds yesterday was getting pretty heavily slagged with some hilarious comments from twatterers both famous and not:
Tweet
Lane @HaygoodLaw · Aug 12

This is the future the Left wants.

Image
Link to post-apocalyptic hellscape of a website that is Twitter.

MajGenl.Meade wrote:I'm sure fed up with Democrats shouting the odds as to how everyone should be agreeing with them at all times and anyone who doesn't toe their particular line is insane. It makes it much harder to decide who to vote for in 2020 - I held my nose and voted for Clinton in 2016. I'm not so sure I could do it again, given the current leftist whining.
What Democrats do you see doing this shouting? What do you think is leftist whining? And I'm pretty sure you won't have to hold your nose and vote for Clinton again -- she isn't actually running, even though Trump would like you to believe that's who he's running against.
GAH!

User avatar
MajGenl.Meade
Posts: 20699
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Groot Brakrivier
Contact:

Re: Election 2020

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Sue U wrote:
MajGenl.Meade wrote:I'm sure fed up with Democrats shouting the odds as to how everyone should be agreeing with them at all times and anyone who doesn't toe their particular line is insane. It makes it much harder to decide who to vote for in 2020 - I held my nose and voted for Clinton in 2016. I'm not so sure I could do it again, given the current leftist whining.
What Democrats do you see doing this shouting? What do you think is leftist whining? And I'm pretty sure you won't have to hold your nose and vote for Clinton again -- she isn't actually running, even though Trump would like you to believe that's who he's running against.
Well, there's you and almost everyone else on this board and all of the current Democrat candidates :lol: Yeah, don't be silly - I didn't mean voting for Clinton again but voting Democrat.

Leftist whining: oh, those poor people can't get a cake baked. No fair. Those are undocumented workers poor things - not illegal aliens. Everyone should get the government to pay for everything, etc etc. Caveat: what's happening lately with ICE is immoral and unsupportable. [Actually, if a wall would work, I'd be happy paying for a wall. What's wrong with a nice wall? It's better than machine gun posts and a minefield].

About the only thing I can see in a Democrat program that is undeniably worthy is to end this gun madness somehow; although amending the Big C is unlikely to be achieved, I don't see Republicans offering nearly as comprehensive an approach as your lot.

Kasich in 2020
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

Post Reply