Saudi Arabia

[BoSoxGal]

Why are we still friendly with this backward cesspool of human rights abuses?!


I am just horrified by the butchering of the journalist Khashoggi, and I just don’t understand why after their funding and support of the schools that produced the 9/11 hijackers and so many other militant terrorists, not to mention the systematic oppression of women and girls and the torture and murder of gays and basically anyone who pisses off one of the zillion crown princes, WHY do we care about this country anymore? Hasn’t American oil production (and Canadian) risen to a point where we don’t need them for that anymore? Isn’t it time anyway to be moving to alternative energy while we still have a decade to avoid the most horrific outcomes of climate change?

I admittedly don’t understand every nuance of foreign relations - can somebody explain to me why we still need to literally be kissing those murderers when we have, at horrible sacrifice to thousands of American families, established a permanent military presence in Iraq?

Are we going to do nothing about this newest brutal human rights violation?

[Joe Guy]

Our administration needs time to piece things together.

[wesw]

well, I pretty much agree with bigsky.

miracles happen.

unfortunately erdogan is not a trustworthy source.

i don t know what to believe...., yet.

if this audio and video exists it will out.

if not...., who knows?

[ex-khobar Andy]

Three reasons, BSG: oil, oil and Iran. I have spent some time in Saudi Arabia in the last 40 years doing environmental surveys and cleanup. I think there is a lot of fallout to come from the disappearance and probable murder of Jamal Khashoggi. Assuming that the truth is as we have suspected then a number of dominoes will fall. Although the US is far less dependent on Saudi oil than it was 30 years ago, the rest of the world is, and the US does not exist in an economic vacuum despite Trump's best efforts.

For the Saudis the biggest enemy is Iran. Not just because they are (mainly) Shia while the Saudi establishment is wholly Sunni. There are three regional powerhouses: Saudi, Iran and Egypt. Egypt has pyramids and no oil and so depends on maintaining reasonable links with the rest of the world. (Tourism.) Obama’s rapprochement with Iran was massively opposed by the Saudis. Mohammad bin Salman (MBS), the son of the current King, was not crown price (next in line) until after Trump’s visit to Riyadh in May 2017. They waited a month: the next day may have seemed a little obvious. It doesn’t take a rocket surgeon to see the connection between opposition to Obama by the Saudis and a willing listener/enabler in Trump. For some reason which is not obvious to me, we (the West) favor Saudi over Iran despite the somewhat democratic nature of the Iranian government.

In Saudi Arabia the kingship has, until now, been passed down among the sons of Abdulaziz who united the country. He had 54 sons and ‘uncounted’ daughters. Salman is the the last of the available sons (many died or were deemed unsuitable), and for decades the speculation has been who would be picked from the second generation. Among them there were many who were competent: Saud bin Faisal was foreign minster for 40 years; Bandar bin Sultan was ambassador to the US for almost as long. It has long been a concern of mine that once the kingship passed to the second generation, which has upwards of 500 princes, there would be a lot of dissent about who it would be; and the senior cousins who were passed over would be royally pissed.

MBS mounted a very public ‘anti-corruption’ coup against some of Saudi’s businessmen and princes (one of whom I know - MBS was right there) and shook them down for $100 billion or so. (Reports vary.). At the same time he spent $500 million on a yacht and close to that on a (pretty substandard, if you ask me) Leonardo portrait of Christ. How does a Muslim prince spend that kind of money on what is, after all, a Christian ikon? Add to that his adventurism in Yemen and I think some of those guys will have reached the end of their tethers.

I expect to see something close to civil war in Saudi Arabia in the next few months. These guys, the senior princes, had a pretty good gig until now. Decent money was flowing. Although there was contempt of some of their social conventions (women drivers, for example) they were generally tolerated and Iran was in check. MBS has ruined all that. Yemen plus Khashoggi = international revulsion. I would not be surprised to see MBS being replaced as Crown Prince by a competent apparatchik such as Bandar bin Sultan.

[wesw]

turkey is also a regional powerhouse, no?

the recent purges in turkey, and the general direction towards total state control in the last decade or so should have evoked revulsion as well.

nato is weaker with turkey, I think.

[ex-khobar Andy]

Turkey is also a regional powerhouse, no?

Yes of course in the wider region, as is Israel. And the countries vying for more external influence are the US, China and Russia.

Edited to add:

the recent purges in turkey, and the general direction towards total state control in the last decade or so should have evoked revulsion as well.

I agree with you there, wes.

[BoSoxGal]

Thank you Andy! I appreciate that well informed & considered contribution.

[BoSoxGal]

How long do we wait to emphatically denounce this extrajudicial killing of a dedicated patriot journalist?

And by denounce I mean, stop doing business with. At least USA official biz.

[Scooter]

[Lord Jim]

I thought that yesterday Marco really made the operative points...

And set exactly the tone that our President ought to be setting...(were he not such a grasping, venal, amoral pig who cares nothing for American values...)

Rubio: No ‘business as usual’ with Saudi Arabia

Sen. Marco Rubio said Sunday the U.S. should not continue with “business as usual" in response to Saudi Arabia following the disappearance of Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi.

Rubio, a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, added he did not think Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin should attend an upcoming economic summit in Saudi Arabia.

"I don't think he should go," the Florida Republican said on CNN's "State of the Union" on Sunday. "I don't think any of our government officials should be going and pretending it's business as usual until we know exactly what's happened here."

Khashoggi, a Washington Post journalist, has not been seen since entering a Saudi consulate in Turkey earlier this month. Turkey claims Khashoggi was murdered there.

Rubio told host Jake Tapper the United States' response to Khashoggi's disappearance should be strong, and "not just symbolic."

"No matter how important they might be to our Iranian strategy, our ability to be a voice for human rights ...[which of course is not something that Il Boobce gives a rat's patootie about] is undermined and compromised if we are not willing to confront something as atrocious as what’s allegedly happened here," he said.

Pressed on whether President Donald Trump should cut off arms sales to Saudi Arabia if it is found responsible, Rubio said the option shouldn't be off the table.

"Arms sales are important not because of the money but because it also provides leverage over their future behavior. ... I would not take cutting that off off the table," he said. "Every option needs to be there in a response." [Yeah, what happened to the President who brags about how he supposedly always keeps his cards close the vest and never takes anything off the table or telegraphs what he will do? On day one of this, he publicly took canceling arms sales off the table thus telling the Saudis that what ever response he's forced to make all they need to do is threaten to cancel the arms deals in response...]

Addressing the same topic on NBC’s “Meet the Press,” Rubio said the U.S. needed to respond strongly in order to keep the high ground when speaking out on other international issues.

“Our moral credibility, our ability to call Putin a murderer because he is, our ability to call Assad a murderer because he is, our ability to confront Maduro in Venezuela or any of these other human rights atrocities like what we see in China, all of that is undermined and compromised if we somehow decide that because an ally who is important did that we're not going to call it out,“ [ Exactamundo...give Marco his choice of any of the big stuffed animals on the top shelf...]Rubio told Chuck Todd, referencing Russia, Syria and other global trouble spots.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/ ... bia-898704

[Scooter]

The question is whether Congress will be prepared to back up the platitudes with action (as they did with Russia, voting sanctions over Trump's objections). Otherwise, Rubio is doing nothing but pandering for domestic consumption.

[ex-khobar Andy]

I don't agree with Rubio about much; but he is, at least, saying the right things here. As Scooter remarks, he does have a bit of a reputation for pandering. Having said that, I note this sentence from his Wikipedia bio: "In the first session of the 115th United States Congress, Rubio was ranked the tenth most bipartisan Senator by the Bipartisan Index, published by The Lugar Center and Georgetown's McCourt School of Public Policy."

So he can't be all bad. I took a look at the 2017 Bipartisan Index and saw that, unsurprisingly, Susan Collins was #1. What did surprise me was that 9 of the top 10 (12 of the top 13) were Republicans.

[Burning Petard]

to expand on an idea stolen from Ted Rall: I am an atheist, so it makes no sense to tell someone to go to hell. Now I just tell them to go to the Saudi Arabia Embassy

snailgate

[BoSoxGal]

Trump is covering for the Saudis, blaming ‘rogue killers’:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saud ... SKCN1MP0Y6

[Lord Jim]

It was a 400 pound guy from New Jersey...

[Scooter]

Chris Christie?

[Big RR]

And how did he get into the embassy?

[Lord Jim]

It looks like this is starting to shake out kind of the way I thought it would...

With ironclad proof that the guy entered the embassy and no evidence that he ever left, it was going to be pretty much impossible for the Saudi's to completely deny any involvement...

But since there's also no proof tying this directly to the King or the Crown Prince they are going to blame it on somebody lower in the food chain acting without high level approval:

BREAKING: CNN Reports Saudis Preparing to Admit Jamal Khashoggi Was Killed in ‘Interrogation Gone Wrong’

CNN reported on Monday that Saudi Arabia is preparing a report in which they will admit that Jamal Khashoggi, the Washington Post columnist who went missing earlier this month, was killed in an “interrogation gone wrong.”

Khashoggi, a prominent Saudi dissident, went missing after walking into the Saudi consulate in Istanbul on October 1. Turkish officials said they have proof he was murdered and dismembered by a team of Saudi agents, a charge the Saudi government vehemently denied.

Per CNN, however, the Saudis are preparing a report that they intended to abduct and bring Khashoggi back to Saudi Arabia, but that he was inadvertently killed in the process. The report is intended, per CNN, to absolve the Saudi government of responsibility for the murder by claiming the operation was not cleared.

This story is developing…

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/breaking-cn ... one-wrong/

ETA:

This could be a cover story, or it could be the truth...

I say it could be the truth just because the idea of murdering a political opponent of your regime in your own embassy (in a country that isn't particularly friendly to you) seems so monumentally stupid...

And whatever else one may think of the Crown Prince, he does not appear to be monumentally stupid...

[rubato]

And how did he get into the embassy?

Sideways? A really tight cummerbund?

yrs,
rubato

[Joe Guy]

CNN reported on Monday that Saudi Arabia is preparing a report in which they will admit that Jamal Khashoggi, the Washington Post columnist who went missing earlier this month, was killed in an “interrogation gone wrong.”

"Please accept our sincerest apologies. We thought we would be able to put Jamal back together again!"