Saudi Arabia

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Lord Jim
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Re: Saudi Arabia

Post by Lord Jim »

then he started making excuses for cold blooded butchering murderers.
That's not really new for him...

He's been doing that for a while now...

He's been doing that regularly for Putin since the campaign, (shortly after he took office, he even had the vileness in an interview televised on Super Bowl Sunday to equate Putin's systematic murder of his political opponents with US soldiers following lawful orders in a war zone) and he has spoken approvingly of Philippine President Rodrigo Duterte's paramilitary thug squads murdering thousands of suspected drug users (yes, not just "dealers" also "users") without any sort of lawful procedures...

I'm sure there are other examples...

Of course this may be the first time he has made excuses for "cold blooded butchering murderers" where the word "butchering" needs to be taken literally... :?
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Big RR
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Re: Saudi Arabia

Post by Big RR »

I don't know; I figure a man who could spearhead an effort to separate parents and children at the border could pretty much be capable of anything. there is no level below which this man will not sink.

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Saudi Arabia

Post by BoSoxGal »

Set the timer for 7 minutes. Then imagine every one of those seconds being filled by the screams of a man being dismembered alive by a bone saw.

I can’t wrap my head around his being able to say nothing condemning such a horrific act.

Anybody who defends such a monster IS a monster themselves. It’s Nazi time.
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Big RR
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Re: Saudi Arabia

Post by Big RR »

Sure, but he doesn't care, just so long as they keep buying his condos and using his hotels.

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Re: Saudi Arabia

Post by Econoline »

You've got to remember: he has no idea of the concept of empathy, or even of the common humanity of other human beings. As far as he's concerned, *HE* exists, and everyone else (probably even his wife and children) is an imaginary character in some sort of elaborate virtual-reality game. This is a guy who literally had to have written notes in front of him in order to even pretend to be sympathetic to teenagers who had just survived a mass shooting.

The biggest irony is that he was once a "reality" TV star.
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Re: Saudi Arabia

Post by BoSoxGal »

Yes I ‘get’ that, but I won’t make excuses for or normalize the behavior of a pathological narcissistic sociopath in the White House. I won’t do that because my country is being destroyed by the monster and that is unacceptable.

This is why I can’t get on board with the ‘wesw is amusing and provokes discussion’ line of bullshit. He is not intelligent, he has no critical thinking skills and is rather a complete apologist for a dangerous man. He wraps himself in hokey hokum and you guys eat it up. I find that abominable, and I’m not sure which bothers me more - that sheep like wesw exist, or that good men do nothing about condemning him.

Where is the line?
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Gob
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Re: Saudi Arabia

Post by Gob »

I hear it was two guys, who claim they were only there visiting Salisbury cathedral.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Re: Saudi Arabia

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

Khashoggi's final column for the WaPo is available and as far as I can tell they have lifted their firewall for it. I don't have a subscription and usually by the 3rd or 4th of the month articles are greyed out.

It's about freedom of the press (more precisely, the lack of it) in the Arab world.

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Re: Saudi Arabia

Post by liberty »

It is amazing that this country has survived as long as it has with as many liberals it has. Has it occurred to any of you liberals that the tape could be disinformation designed to drive a wedge between the US and the Saudis? And even if it is true it is just a reflection of the region. They are all like that except for the Israelis.


The fact is Iran is an Enemy that has killed Americans and Saudi Arabia is an ally. They may be weak, flawed, and undemocratic; but they are a reliable ally. The alliance with the Saudis needs to continue and the arms sell needs to happen otherwise the only nation that benefits is Iran.


If the crown prince needs to go in order to save the alliance it should happen, but if he goes I think the social improvements he has made will go with him. And there will need to be some arrangement made to protect him like some kind of protective custody. By trying to increase the rights of women he has made enemies among the traditionalist and if he is killed it will be a long time before anyone else will be willing to try to modernize the society.
I expected to be placed in an air force combat position such as security police, forward air control, pararescue or E.O.D. I would have liked dog handler. I had heard about the dog Nemo and was highly impressed. “SFB” is sad I didn’t end up in E.O.D.

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Re: Saudi Arabia

Post by BoSoxGal »

Trump went to Montana again yesterday, this time to rile up the rednecks to vote for Greg Gianforte, the at large Congressman who was prosecuted for body slamming a Guardian reporter right before the special election in early 2017 that put him in office.

Trump lavished praise on Gianforte for his criminal assault on the reporter, who did nothing in provocation but to ask a budgetary policy/healthcare policy question and raise his recorder to capture Gianforte’s response. Speaking of the body slam in glowing terms, Trump called Gianforte ‘my kind of guy’.

Is it any wonder after almost 3 years of unrelenting attacks on the press, Trump’s Saudi business partners figure they can murder one with impunity?

But hey, Trump was elected fair and square and his loyal followers are decent people who provoke interesting debate.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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Re: Saudi Arabia

Post by Burning Petard »

According to wikipedia, the current US Ambassador to Saudi Arabia is vacant since the new POTUS was sworn in. Christopher P. Henzel, career foreign service officer.was the Chargé d'Affaires and has continued in that less-than-ambassador position.

An online search for Henzel at the NY Times and the Washington Post came up empty, nada. That is very weird; gives all kinds of strange thoughts in my head. The Trump administration will be fertile ground for PhD researchers in many fields.

snailgate.

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Re: Saudi Arabia

Post by rubato »

They are 'allies' only in the sense that Mao, Stalin, and Chang Kai Shek were allies in WWII, allies of convenience not sympathy nor shared values. And recall that 9-11 was carried out by Saudis and Osama Bin Laden was a Saudi. Iranian puppets blew up the US barracks in Lebanon and scared Reagan into running away like a little girl and then selling the Iranians TOW missiles. but Osama Bin Laden picked up the torch from there.


yrs,
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Re: Saudi Arabia

Post by rubato »

Only the crackpot traitor liberty is stupid enough to DEFEND the Saudis.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/turkey-says- ... nance.html

Well, maybe wes too.

yrs,
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liberty
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Re: Saudi Arabia

Post by liberty »

rubato wrote:Only the crackpot traitor liberty is stupid enough to DEFEND the Saudis.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/turkey-says- ... nance.html

Well, maybe wes too.

yrs,
rubato
Well you are definitely Honkey cracker too and probably a traitor as well. You are a supporter of Jane Fonda who was and is a traitor for her aid and support for the enemy. But liberals say she did not commit treason well if she didn’t commit treason no one can commit treason. How can someone be a traitor for doing the samething for the Russians that she did for the communist?

And I am very loyal to my nation; I would be willing sacrifice your nation to save my own.
I expected to be placed in an air force combat position such as security police, forward air control, pararescue or E.O.D. I would have liked dog handler. I had heard about the dog Nemo and was highly impressed. “SFB” is sad I didn’t end up in E.O.D.

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Lord Jim
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Re: Saudi Arabia

Post by Lord Jim »

A statement from the Saudi public prosecutor said a fight broke out between Khashoggi and people who met him in the consulate and led to his death.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/turkey-says- ... nance.html

Well now that just makes all kinds of sense, doesn't it? The guy goes into the Saudi Consulate to get paperwork for his marriage (with his fiancee waiting outside) and decides that would be a good time to start a punch up with 15 Saudi intelligence agents...

Nice try, Saudis...

But I'm here to tell you that there is nobody....

NO-BODY ...

on the face of the planet who is STUPID enough to buy that load of horse caca...

Sorry fellas, but you're gonna have to go back to the drawing board...There just isn't a single soul who's a big enough moron to swallow that one...



Saudi Arabia admits Khashoggi killed in Istanbul consulate; Trump finds explanation believable

RIYADH

Saudi Arabia on Saturday admitted that critic Jamal Khashoggi was killed during a "brawl" inside its Istanbul consulate, an explanation that U.S. President Donald Trump said he found credible but failed to convince top U.S. lawmakers.
https://japantoday.com/category/world/s ... tate-media


Oh...

I stand corrected...
Last edited by Lord Jim on Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lord Jim
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Re: Saudi Arabia

Post by Lord Jim »

Of course unbelievable stupidity on Trump's part would be a big improvement as an explanation versus what is most likely going on...

For a while it looked like the POS-In-Chief was just willing to believe any bullshit story the Saudi's concocted because of the way they have lined his pockets, (and I'm sure he hopes will continue to line his pockets)

Which was appalling enough...

But now there is growing evidence that Trump may not just be a passive consumer of these ridiculous Saudi cover stories, but that he may in fact be an active participant in concocting and "selling" them ....(Much like the role he played in coming up with the bullshit cover story about the purpose of the Trump Tower meeting with Russian agents...)
New low for Donald Trump? Now he’s helping Saudi regime cover up Jamal Khashoggi’s murder

Trump and Jared Kushner now want to help the Saudis find someone to blame. They think the world will just forget

Read the first paragraph of this report from Shane Harris in the Washington Post and think about it for a moment:
The Trump administration and the Saudi royal family are searching for a mutually agreeable explanation for the death of journalist Jamal Khashoggi — one that will avoid implicating Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, who is among the president’s closest foreign allies, according to analysts and officials in multiple countries.
I assume that is based on information from reliable sources. And what it says is truly shocking: The White House is conspiring with the Saudi government to cover up a murder.

Here's another passage from the New York Times in an article about how Saudi Arabia is considering pinning the blame on a top general, presumably with the relieved permission of President Trump and Jared Kushner, who, according to the Intercept, regularly texts his good buddy Mohammed bin Salman (MBS) on WhatsApp:
Jared Kushner, Mr. Trump’s son-in-law and Middle East adviser, has been urging the president to stand by Prince Mohammed, according to a person close to the White House and a former official with knowledge of the discussions.

Mr. Kushner has argued that the outrage over Mr. Khashoggi’s disappearance and possible killing will pass, just as it did after other Saudi errors like the kidnapping of the prime minister of Lebanon and the killing of a busload of children in Yemen by a Saudi airstrike.
At first Trump acted as though he didn't know anything about it all, which was obviously daft. Word of Khashoggi's disappearance into the Saudi consulate in Istanbul was almost immediately reported and U.S. intelligence certainly knew about it. Then, after speaking with King Salman on the phone, Trump mused publicly about "rogue killers" possibly having done the deed but still refused to admit that the Saudis had been involved, running a potential alternative theory up the flagpole.

He has said repeatedly he doesn't want to disturb his massive "arms deals," most of which were negotiated during the Obama administration and none of which add up to the massive dollar amounts he claims.

Meanwhile, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo flew over to Riyadh and let himself be photographed yukking it up with MBS, who the administration insists is conducting a thorough "investigation" into a crime he is suspected of perpetrating. [In other news, Donald Trump Jr. has been put in charge of the Russiagate investigation] Upon Pompeo's return to Washington, he assured the public that we would be provided with the results shortly -- as if they would have any credibility at all.

All this is happening as the global media is reporting hourly on the details of this gruesome homicide, apparently ordered by a young thug who believes he can literally get away with the murder of a journalist in a foreign country without paying a price.

In a way, you can't blame him. MBS is said to be an admirer of Vladimir Putin, who has allegedly ordered the assassination of Russians on foreign soil and is commonly known to kill journalists and political rivals in his own country. Nobody says much about that. President Trump has defended that, saying, "There's a lot of killing." It hasn't seemed to have hurt Putin's prestige or power on the world stage. And it has sent a powerful message to his critics: Watch your backs; I can get you anywhere.

MBS has emulated Putin in a number of ways in the two years since he assumed power. He abducted the Lebanese prime minister, impulsively ordered a blockade of Qatar, and escalated the war in Yemen to even more brutal levels, targeting civilians, especially children.

He rounded up a group of cabinet ministers and wealthy rivals and held them hostage in the Riyadh Ritz-Carlton, reportedly using torture and plenty of muscle to relieve them of their wealth and influence. (Kushner was rumored to have provided him with U.S. intelligence about some of them.) Not only did nothing happen to the prince after that, he has been feted in foreign capitals as if he were Bruce Springsteen.

As with what Trump describes as his love affair with Kim Jong-un, Kushner -- Trump's top strategist in charge of Middle East peace (and emolument management) -- had already established a tight bro-on-bro relationship with MBS, flying over to Riyadh for all-nighters with the young prince "swapping stories and planning strategy." MBS has reportedly said to his close associates that he has Kushner "in his pocket," which seems to be accurate.

Trump believes that all foreign policy is based upon how nice leaders are to him personally. And the Saudis were very nice indeed when he went on his first big foreign trip. They gave him bling, they promised arms sales and they saw right away that he was in way over his head. He was happy to throw all the U.S. eggs in that basket, assured by Kushner that this would lead to many excellent results, with Iran marginalized, Israel secure and everyone living happily ever after. It's an impossibly naive strategy.

Normally, one would assume that the far more worldly Saudis would play it smarter. But as it turns out, their own man of the future, MBS, is equally inept with a similar, if obviously less inhibited, authoritarian worldview. Torturing and killing a U.S. resident who wrote for the Washington Post was a very risky move with little upside.

Again, you can't blame him for thinking he would easily get away with it. After all, the most powerful man in the world calls the press evil and commonly points them out to his supporters as "the enemy of the people." And after all, Khashoggi was explicitly banned from writing in newspapers, appearing on TV or going to conferences in his home country back in November of 2017 by MBS because he had criticized Donald Trump. No doubt the prince assumed Trump would be grateful to see one of his critics "taken care of."
[We have a bingo...]

MBS may not survive this. The loss of prestige and economic blowback on his country is intense, and he's shown himself to be an unfit leader. But he likely has nothing to fear from the U.S., at least under the current administration. Donald Trump is with him all the way.
https://www.salon.com/2018/10/19/new-lo ... is-murder/


Here are the links to the Post and NYT articles referenced in the story:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... e5bf670a0a

http://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/18/world ... rabia.html



This is starting to look like something that could easily constitute an Article Of Impeachment all by itself...

ETA:

What I particularly liked about that article, is the way it provides the background and context that makes this whole thing much more understandable...

The image that had been sold to the West of Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman...As an urbane, modern thinking reformer, who would help guide Saudi Arabia onto a more democratic and human rights respecting path...

A sort of Saudi version of Jordan's King Abdullah ...

Is completely false; just a front for Western consumption...(and the Western press bears some responsibility for failing to properly scrutinize this phony facade prior to this incident and report accordingly. There may have been some in-depth critical reporting on this guy, but most of what I've seen amounted to gushing about his doing things like finally letting women drive... )

Apparently the truth is that MSB has a lot more in common with Uday Hussein than he does with Abdullah...

He's a spoiled, sadistic authoritarian thug with a screw loose; a malignant narcissist who believes he can get away with just about anything...

And his grandiose scrambled brain "reasoned" that based on several factors; his relationship with Kushner, Trump's personal financial reliance on his family, and Trump's own well established hate and contempt for journalists, he could pull this off without any consequences...
Last edited by Lord Jim on Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Saudi Arabia

Post by BoSoxGal »

And apparently he was absolutely correct.
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Saudi Arabia

Post by RayThom »

Here's the latest update:

The Turkish government has released an updated Khashoggi story that Trump is now using to cement relations with MBS.
"It appears that during a slight altercation at the Saudi bar in the embassy, the K-man tripped over a bunch of bone saws and fell directly into a bathtub filled with sulfuric acid."
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Lord Jim
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Re: Saudi Arabia

Post by Lord Jim »

BoSoxGal wrote:And apparently he was absolutely correct.
Well, this hasn't played out yet...

Clearly nothing will happen on the US end of this before the election, but the Congress managed to find the wherewithal to defy Trump on Russia and pass sanctions by veto-proof majorities, so it's not out of the question that it could happen in this case...

I also think the "draw it out until people forget about it" strategy is not likely to work in this case...

It may not dominate the news as the top story every single day, but the story doesn't "go away" unless the press allows that it to, and since this involves the murder of a reporter, that's not likely to happen...

They tend to take that kind of thing personally...
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Re: Saudi Arabia

Post by Econoline »

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