Brexit On The Brink...

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Gob
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Re: Brexit On The Brink...

Post by Gob »

“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Lord Jim
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Re: Brexit On The Brink...

Post by Lord Jim »

Interesting...

From Strop's link:
MPs return to Parliament for the Queen's speech on October 14 and Remainers have the numbers to oust Johnson in a no confidence vote if he indicates he will refuse to delay Brexit

They can call and win a vote of no confidence in the Prime Minister, then MPs have two weeks to form a government that can secure a majority in Parliament.

That would allow Remainer MPs the chance to form a temporary cross-party government and send their own representative to Brussels to seek an extension before likely triggering an election.
That looks like the most likely scenario to me if Johnson refuses to back down...

They could pick a relatively non-controversial caretaker PM (like maybe Sir Nicholas Soames, Churchill's grandson and one of the Tory rebels who has already announced that he is retiring from Parliament) whose only mandate would be to secure a Brexit extension for a few months...

Then they immediately schedule a new election for perhaps early December...

Of course the fly in the ointment for that relatively rational path out of the constitutional crisis would be the frequently not rational Jeremy Corbyn, who would have to sign off on the deal...

He might very well think that as leader of the largest bloc in this cross-party coalition that he should be the interim PM, something that I'm sure that neither the Tory rebels nor any of the other parties needed to form the governing majority (The Lib Dems, the SNP) would ever, ever agree to...

It might take a bit of doing to disabuse Mr. Corbyn of this delusion before the interim government could be formed...
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ex-khobar Andy
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Re: Brexit On The Brink...

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

I didn't know whether to put this here or in the "you can't make this shit up' thread.

The Guardian is reporting, without comment, that the Justice Secretary (Barr's equivalent, for those of an American persuasion) has had a conversation with Boris Johnson, the thrust of which was to remind him that the law should be upheld.
Buckland supports PM but reminds him to obey rule of law

The justice secretary, Robert Buckland, says he supports the prime minister and claims speculation about his future is “wide of the mark”.

But in a tweet he revealed he had talked to Johnson about the importance of upholding the rule of law.

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Lord Jim
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Re: Brexit On The Brink...

Post by Lord Jim »

he revealed he had talked to Johnson about the importance of upholding the rule of law.
Jeepers, a chief law enforcement official telling the head of the government that it's important to uphold the law rather than supporting and enabling any illegal thing he chooses to do...

What a novel concept...
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liberty
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Re: Brexit On The Brink...

Post by liberty »

The people voted to exit the EU, but parliament had other ideas. That doesn’t seem very democratic to me. Is the UK a democracy?
I expected to be placed in an air force combat position such as security police, forward air control, pararescue or E.O.D. I would have liked dog handler. I had heard about the dog Nemo and was highly impressed. “SFB” is sad I didn’t end up in E.O.D.

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Brexit On The Brink...

Post by BoSoxGal »

liberty wrote:The people voted to exit the EU, but parliament had other ideas. That doesn’t seem very democratic to me. Is the UK a democracy?
The people of America by 90% majority want comprehensive background checks closing private sale and gunshow loopholes, with requisite funding to close all the gaps in agencies sharing records, so the background checks will be accurate. A far larger majority of Americans than the Brexit support want to reinstate the assault weapons ban and prohibit sales of large capacity clips, drums and associated automatic fire gadgets like bump stocks.

A far larger majority of Americans support a Medicare for All national healthcare system than the Brexit support majority.

But Congress does nothing.

Isn’t this a democracy, lib? Democracy is messy, especially in the USA absent real campaign finance reform.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

ex-khobar Andy
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Re: Brexit On The Brink...

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

Parliament has simply stated that leaving the EU does not require self-immolation. Lots of people like me think that leaving EU is a stupid idea; but if it's inevitable, let's at least make sure that we have a decent chance of thriving after it, without bitterness or rancor to our erstwhile friends. A no deal Brexit will probably not achieve that. Johnson's determination to do or die is driven by the same sort of self aggrandisement that drives Trump rather than a considered view of how the country will benefit.

Unfortunately a general election will not sort this out. It's not a binary question with a simple answer.

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RayThom
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Brexit On The Brink...

Post by RayThom »

liberty wrote:The people voted to exit the EU, but parliament had other ideas. That doesn’t seem very democratic to me. Is the UK a democracy?
RU Referendum Results
https://www.bbc.com/news/politics/eu_referendum/results

Don't forget that Scotland and Northern Ireland, who both enjoy a somewhat autonomous existence from the "UK," voted to remain in the EU. And the Welsh, who have never been gung-ho English lovers, if given another chance to vote, would most likely vote to remain. Hell -- even England would vote to remain at this point.

Regardless, even those two "remainers," if they put together a proposal for membership in the EU, would be a federation so strong that they could not be ignored by Parliament. Where's your democracy now?

As I see it, the only option left, as this Waterloo moment continues to worsen, is that another election needs to be scheduled.
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Scooter
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Re: Brexit On The Brink...

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"If you don't have a seat at the table, you're on the menu."

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liberty
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Re: Brexit On The Brink...

Post by liberty »

BoSoxGal wrote:
liberty wrote:The people voted to exit the EU, but parliament had other ideas. That doesn’t seem very democratic to me. Is the UK a democracy?
The people of America by 90% majority want comprehensive background checks closing private sale and gunshow loopholes, with requisite funding to close all the gaps in agencies sharing records, so the background checks will be accurate. A far larger majority of Americans than the Brexit support want to reinstate the assault weapons ban and prohibit sales of large capacity clips, drums and associated automatic fire gadgets like bump stocks.

A far larger majority of Americans support a Medicare for All national healthcare system than the Brexit support majority.

But Congress does nothing.

Isn’t this a democracy, lib? Democracy is messy, especially in the USA absent real campaign finance reform.
Did the American people vote in a referendum for those things? History has demonstrated that polls can’t be trusted.
I have no dog in the fight; it’s not my country, but I do believe in liberty not the right of the elites to rule.
I expected to be placed in an air force combat position such as security police, forward air control, pararescue or E.O.D. I would have liked dog handler. I had heard about the dog Nemo and was highly impressed. “SFB” is sad I didn’t end up in E.O.D.

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Scooter
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Re: Brexit On The Brink...

Post by Scooter »

Do the American people have the right to vote in a referendum for such things? That doesn't seem very democratic to me. Is the U.S. a democracy?
"If you don't have a seat at the table, you're on the menu."

-- Author unknown

ex-khobar Andy
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Re: Brexit On The Brink...

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

The Scottish Appeals Court has ruled that BloJo's prorogation (suspension) of Parliament was illegal, on the not unreasonable grounds that no-one but an idiot would believe that the stated reason (so he could get on with the rest of his domestic agenda) was the truth. He therefore lied to the Queen - who had no choice but to take her PM's advice - and that's really not on, old chap.

In the meantime the English courts decided that prorogation was a political decision and that therefore they would not get involved, effectively OK'ing BloJo's decision to lie to the queen.

This will go to the UK Supreme Court for sorting out.

Have I mentioned previously that I am Scottish by birth?

I think I've posted this before but it bears repeating.


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Lord Jim
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Re: Brexit On The Brink...

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This will go to the UK Supreme Court for sorting out.
Well now, here's an interesting question...

Since under the EU, the British legal system is subordinate to the EU appellate courts (The aspect of EU membership that I would find the most objectionable if I were a British citizen) does that mean that if the MPs challenging prorogation lose in the UK Supreme Court they could appeal to a court in Brussels to overrule it?

If so, that would certainly go a long way towards proving the Brexiters point...
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ex-khobar Andy
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Re: Brexit On The Brink...

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

I didn't know this until I was researching my above post.

The Chief Justice of England and Wales - who issued the ruling I referenced above which said that they would not get involved in politics and that therefore BloJo lying to the Queen was beyond its purview - is one Lord Burnett of Maldon.

When Ian Burnett became Lord Chief Justice he was automatically elevated to the House of Lords. He adopted the title Baron Burnett of Maldon. Traditionally the 'of wherever' bit of a title refers to some place of significance to the holder of that title. Winston Churchill, had he taken the earldom offered to him after WW2, would perhaps have become Earl (Churchill) of London. He declined the title so of course we'll never know; but it illustrates the point. I'm not clear on why Burnett (born in Worthing on the south coast) adopted Maldon and his wiki entry and the cited references are no help.

What follows is speculation. The Battle of Maldon (991 AD) was a unsuccessful attempt, led by the Anglo Saxon King Æthelred the Unready, to repel a Viking invasion. King Æthelred was not present at the battle and delegated it to his commander Earl Byrhtnoth. It's nowadays seen as a valiant but futile effort. Byrhtnoth was slain and his decapitated body left on the battlefield.

In the US, The Maldon Institute adopted the name in commemoration of this heroic attempt to defend a homeland against invasion. I know this because there was a time when I knew one of the founders of this institute quite well socially and I asked him where the name came from. Their principal source of cash was Richard Mellon Scaife who was a billionaire famous for funding extreme right wing causes. Most people - if they know the name Maldon at all - think of it as a small town in Essex, and some may know that it was the site of a battle over 1000 years ago. Few people understand the political weight attached to the name and - remember I am speculating - I wonder if Lord Burnett knew this in choosing his title. In the US it's part of the vast right wing conspiracy; and my friend from long ago would have confirmed that, proudly. It's interesting that Lord Burnett of Maldon is supporting BloJo in his lunatic (IMHO) efforts: whether Burnett signaled his political leaning by his choice of title is a matter of opinion. I don't think he's a stupid man.

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Re: Brexit On The Brink...

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

PerLJ: Since under the EU, the British legal system is subordinate to the EU appellate courts (The aspect of EU membership that I would find the most objectionable if I were a British citizen) does that mean that if the MPs challenging prorogation lose in the UK Supreme Court they could appeal to a court in Brussels to overrule it?
Only in the same sense that the Supreme Court of California is subordinate to SCOTUS. Do you therefore want to secede from the Union?

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Re: Brexit On The Brink...

Post by Big RR »

Jim--I have had some expereince with the EU courts around 10 years ago (so this may be different now), but as I recall, the EU courts have no jurisdiction and may not rule on rulings of national courts unless the national court refers it to the EU court for a ruling on the issue. I experienced this with regard to national courts issuing injunctions to cease infringing IP rights which applied across all EU countries, and eventually the EU parliament addressed some of this in that area. National courts, I believe, may rule on EU related issues (so long as they have jurisdiction in the area), but are no subordinate to the EU courts, at least as I understand it.

Andy--it is different; the state courts are subordinate to the USSC and federal courts when the matters involve areas in which those courts have the final say (generally Constitutional issues). Also, the Constitution permits parties of different states litigating civil suits having a vailue in excess of a given amounts, to have the suit removed to the federal courts, removing the state court's jurisdiction

If you need an example of this, look only to the first W election, where the USSC instructed the state of Florida to cease recounts and court challenges declared the winner on its own-- a decision the courts of Florida were subject to. But I am not aware that the EU courts have that same authority.

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Lord Jim
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Re: Brexit On The Brink...

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Only in the same sense that the Supreme Court of California is subordinate to SCOTUS. Do you therefore want to secede from the Union?
You've just hit on the very heart of the Brexit argument...

The idea that there is an attempt being made to create some sort of "United States Of Europe" that would make the member nations no more autonomous or sovereign than California or Virginia...

It is this concept/analogy that the Leavers categorically reject and that no one in any of the member states ever voted for...
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ex-khobar Andy
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Re: Brexit On The Brink...

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

It's not a perfect analogy of course; but it's close. The EU Court, for example, would not rule on this specific issue because it's a matter for the UK. In the same way SCOTUS basically settled Gore V Bush in favor of the FL Court's ruling even though what was at stake was a US Election.

Do you really think that Macron and Merkel (to name just two) want a United States of Europe? (Hint: Non and nein.)

Big RR
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Re: Brexit On The Brink...

Post by Big RR »

True, but while US law permits the federal courts, at times, to overrule state courts, I do not think the EU courts have that same power, and, at least as I understand it, they have no jurisdiction to even review issues decided by the national courts, although they will weigh in if the national courts request it.

Not sure what powers the EU Parliament has vis a vis national Parliaments.

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Re: Brexit On The Brink...

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

And the UK High Court has found that BloJo acted illegally in advising the Queen to prorogue Parliament.

Summary of the ruling here; the full ruling (which I have not yet read) is here.

In essence they say that no sane person could conclude that the action was anything but a ruse concocted to avoid Parliamentary discussion. They don't say that he lied to the Queen but that's the only possible conclusion. Strictly speaking the Queen as head of state prorogues (shuts down rather than temporarily taking a break) Parliament: she is also required to follow the recommendation of the PM.

Johnson has for years cultivated the image of a lovable rogue with messy hair and a sharp brain. He has to resign, as far as I can tell - but these days, on both sides of the pond, what makes sense and what actually happens are poles apart.

What a fucking mess. I don't see Corbyn - although I like some of his ideas in the same way that I admire Sanders - straightening this out. A national government with Gordon Brown and John Major coming out of retirement leading the way for say six months? Both of them are firmly opposed to Brexit, but they could lead a second referendum with some clearly worded options and a clear rubric for how the results would be applied.

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