Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace

[MajGenl.Meade]

Joe, I'd guess they don't want people to get the idea that it was done on purpose

"Unintentional" means 'Well, we jolly well intended to shoot something down. Whoops!'

Apparently the local guy with finger on the button wasn't aware he was in proximity to an international airport with big planes taking off and landing on authorized flight paths.

[RayThom]

... "Unintentional" means 'Well, we jolly well intended to shoot something down. Whoops!'
Apparently the local guy with finger on the button wasn't aware he was in proximity to an international airport with big planes taking off and landing on authorized flight paths.

That doesn't mean it was 100% negligence on Iran's part. They added a caveat, stating that the incident was also “caused by U.S. adventurism.”

All is fair in love, and war.

[Joe Guy]

It’s Trump’s fault.

[Lord Jim]

On Friday morning at a White House news conference, a reporter informed Pompeo that not knowing precisely when and where was not the definition of "imminent."

Pompeo was not backing down.

"We had specific information on an imminent threat, and those threats included attacks on U.S. embassies," the former Kansas Republican congressman shot back. "Period, full stop."

Another try: "Secretary Pompeo," he was asked, "what is your definition of imminent?"

At first Pompeo paused. He then exhaled and declared, "This was gonna happen. American lives were at risk."

Gee whiz, you'd think that a bright and well-educated boy like Mike, (1st in his class at West Point, and a Harvard Law grad) would know something as simple as the difference between "imminent" and "inevitable". (Which is what he is really describing).

That having been said, and while all the evidence supports the position that no evidence of an "imminent" plot existed, I think it's a political mistake for the Dems to expend their political capital hammering on this.

Unfortunately, the simplistic conclusion, "Trump took a terrorist mastermind (which Solemani certainly was; a very bad actor fully deserving of his fate) out of the battle at no cost in American lives, (because no one was killed in the Iranian missile attack) " is the take-away from this incident that the average American will have. (Obviously, if Trump's recklessness had resulted in a general shooting war between the US and Iran, the public conclusion would be vastly different.)

Even though the facts are on their side, continuing to try and make a big deal over "imminent" or not "imminent" will just look like nit-picking to a lot of folks, and detract from building the broad coalition of public support for Trump's removal. (Afterall while we could argue endlessly about "imminent" it's unquestionable that more attacks were coming.)

Time to move on, and stick with the clearer, more effective arguments...

Let's get on with the trial, and let's continue to build the pressure on GOP Senators to hear John Bolton's testimony.

[Scooter]

Ukrainian plane was 'unintentionally' shot down, Iran says

Iran announced Saturday that its military "unintentionally" shot down the Ukrainian jetliner that crashed earlier this week, killing all 176 aboard, after the government had repeatedly denied Western accusations that it was responsible.

The plane was shot down early Wednesday, hours after Iran launched a ballistic missile attack on two military bases housing U.S. troops in Iraq in retaliation for the killing of Iranian Gen. Qassem Soleimani in an American airstrike in Baghdad. No one was wounded in the attack on the bases.

A military statement carried by state media said the plane was mistaken for a "hostile target" after it turned toward a "sensitive military centre" of Iran's Revolutionary Guard. The military was at its "highest level of readiness," it said, amid the heightened tensions with the United States.

An Iranian Revolutionary Guard commander said his unit accepts "full responsibility" for what happened. In an address broadcast by state TV on Saturday, Gen. Amir Ali Hajizadeh said that when he learned about the downing of the plane, "I wished I were dead."

"In such a condition, because of human error and in an unintentional way, the flight was hit," the military statement said. It apologized for the disaster and said it would upgrade its systems to prevent such "mistakes" in the future. It also said those responsible for the strike on the plane would be prosecuted.

Iranian Foreign Minister Javad Zarif on Twitter offered "profound regrets, apologies and condolences" to those affected, but also blamed "US adventurism" for the accident.

President Hassan Rouhani tweeted: "Iran deeply regrets this disastrous mistake."

Flight PS752, a Boeing 737 operated by Ukrainian International Airlines, went down on the outskirts of Tehran during takeoff. Ottawa said 138 people were bound for Canada. Foreign Affairs Minister François-Philippe Champagne on Friday said that 57 Canadians were killed.

Iran had denied it was responsible. But then the U.S. and Canada said they believe Iran shot down the aircraft.

Following the admission, Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said in a statement early Saturday that the government's focus remains on finding closure and justice for families and loved ones of the victims.

"We will continue working with our partners around the world to ensure a complete and thorough investigation, and the Canadian government expects full co-operation from Iranian authorities."

Ottawa is leading a group of nations that lost citizens in the crash to advocate with "one single voice," Champagne said Friday.

The government is also creating a task force of top public servants to make sure Canadian families affected by the crash get the support and information they need, he added.

The measures follow private conversations in Toronto between Trudeau and the families of victims.

The plane was en route to the Ukrainian capital of Kyiv when it went down. The dead also included citizens of Iran, Ukraine, Sweden, the United Kingdom, Afghanistan and Germany.

Iran's supreme leader has offered condolences and called for an investigation. In a statement broadcast on state TV on Saturday, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei expressed his "deep sympathy" to the families of the victims and called on the armed forces to "pursue probable shortcomings and guilt in the painful incident."

Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky issued a statement saying the crash investigation should continue and the "perpetrators" should be brought to justice. He said Iran should compensate victims' families, and he requested "official apologies through diplomatic channels."

Zelensky said on Saturday that he spoke to French President Emmanuel Macron and they agreed to have French specialists decode the plane's "black box" recorder. A spokesperson for Ukraine's leader on Friday said Ukrainian officials gained access to the recorder.

In a news conference on Saturday, the airline's President Evgeniy Dykhne said his company checked safety documents "multiple times" and was confident that there was "no opportunity for any technical problems or any kind of piloting mistakes" before the jet crashed outside Tehran.

[BoSoxGal]

Newlyweds headed home to Canada after marrying in Tehran. +174 other innocent souls.

Just more lives destroyed by the penis waving of the ruling classes.

[Scooter]

There was a couple coming home, the husband had some issue with his reservation or documents or something, his wife got on the flight while he stayed behind to catch another one. I can't imagine what he was feeling when he found out what happened.

[Scooter]

[Darren]

Commercial aircraft have transponders that constantly broadcast an ID. If you see a movie that shows an air traffic controller's radar scope with the blips on the screen those are from the signals. The ID system has been around a long time. There's no excuse for the Iranians firing a missile at the aircraft given the track that originated at the Tehran airport. I'm wondering if it wasn't deliberate.

Same with the Malaysian airliner shot down by the Russians over Ukraine. The Buk system that took down the Malaysian airliner was a mobile battery Perhaps it couldn't distinguish between a civilian or military flight. Perhaps it was haphazard training. Perhaps it was faulty equipment. Same with the Iranians. My guess is it's similar Russian equipment that the Israelis operate around with impunity.

Saying it's Trump's fault that Russians and Iranians both seem to be incapable of operating an anti-aircraft battery is a stretch. Whatever supports your delusions.

[Scooter]

Deliberately shooting down an aircraft on which the majority of passengers were its own citizens? To what end? Tinfoil must be in short supply where you live, you've bought it all up to make hats.

And after Iran Air 655, and the U.S.'s attempt to deflect from its own culpability and incompetence, no American should deign to offer any sort of criticism about this incident or the response to it.

[Darren]

Deliberately shooting down an aircraft on which the majority of passengers were its own citizens? To what end? Tinfoil must be in short supply where you live, you've bought it all up to make hats.

And after Iran Air 655, and the U.S.'s attempt to deflect from its own culpability and incompetence, no American should deign to offer any sort of criticism about this incident or the response to it.

With two shoot downs of civilian airliners by definitely Russian equipment in Ukraine and most likely Russian equipment in Iran I think there may be commonality. As I said civilian airliners have transponders that ID them clearly as civilian.

As for the Iranian airliner the Navy shot down that wasn't done with the electronics I'm familiar with from my time. The newer computer based equipment including the theater radars that communicate between ships is foreign to me. I found the account of the recent Navy ship collisions to be astounding especially when mention was made of windows not being updated. Mention was also made of steering being done via a "dashboard" now. In my day contacts were tracked on a status board and we had a chief radarman that acted as an aircraft controller for planes off the carrier. I'm thinking automation has created issues.

[MGMcAnick]

Commercial aircraft have transponders that constantly broadcast an ID.

Good point, but if the control tower assigned a code to squawk, but that was not communicated to the military idiots in charge, they might still have thought it was a foreign military plane. Not that that is an excuse, but it could happen. One would hope that civilian ATC and the military were in constant communication, but who knows.

My theory is more like the military probably thought ANY plane leaving the airport MUST be loaded with Americans.

[Darren]

Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) should have been built into the missile battery. During my time HF transmitters were the size of large file cabinets. The IFF equipment was the size of two stacked large dorm refrigerators.

The transistorized transceivers like the URC 32 were the latest but still about the same size and foot print. The next gen was about a third the size of the old stuff. None of it had the chips and printed circuit boards of today that drastically shrunk equipment. There's no reason IFF shouldn't have been built into the Russian equipment. This is a URC 32 transceiver of the 70's. This is a 500 watt WRT-2 transmitter.

[Scooter]

So you throw out a bomb about it being deliberate, and then all of your commentary points to how it could have happened by accident. And then you wonder why you are not taken seriously.

[Darren]

So you throw out a bomb about it being deliberate, and then all of your commentary points to how it could have happened by accident. And then you wonder why you are not taken seriously.

Never assume competence when it isn't proven.

Given how easily the Israelis have fooled Russia's most modern anti-aircraft system available to other countries, my guess it's a question of equipment, training or both that lead to shooting down the Ukraine airliner. I'll give them credit for not trying to shoot down the moon. But the civilian aircraft should have been a simple no-go.

I have no idea why you think a deliberate shoot down would be possible. That's Twilight Zone stuff.

[Scooter]

Don't twist. It was you that introduced the notion that it was deliberate:

I'm wondering if it wasn't deliberate.

If you are backing away from that now, fine, but why throw that bomb to begin with?

[Darren]

The Iranians claim their military was in a high state of readiness and the plane flew too close to a military facility.

Based on my experience a high state of readiness would have included training and equipment that was 100% operational. That obviously wasn't the case. Otherwise the accident would not have happened.

If you consider the Iranians' screw up as deliberate because they now admitted they shot the plane down that's your opinion. It still looks like an accident facilitated by incompetence and equipment that failed to discriminate between a target and a non-target.

After the porking of Osama before he was fed to the sharks I was happy to read that our men on the scene of Soleimani's burning body were more respectful and put the fire out to ID him. I wonder how much beer they drank in anticipation of Soleiamani's death,

I'm sure Soleimani will enjoy his virgin vinyl sheep which come 72 to a case.

[Joe Guy]

I'm sure Soleimani will enjoy his virgin vinyl sheep which come 72 to a case.

And you know this how?...

[BoSoxGal]

One thing is probably certain: the guy who shot down the airliner is dead.

[BoSoxGal]

The people are in the streets of Tehran calling for the resignation of the Ayatollah and shouting ‘Death to Liars’.

Those Iranians are better citizens than most Americans.