Trump for the win in November.

[Darren]

Thank you SueU! You've always been a help.

Now to return to our regular programming:

[MajGenl.Meade]

Trump is sure kissing-arses all over, ain't he? Surprised he doesn't just out and offer people cash money - he can probably borrow it somewhere and then welsh on the debt, as is his habit.

Could you not just use the word renege, from the Latin negare (‘to deny’), rather than a word that is insulting to an entire ethnicity/nationality of people?

I’ll assume you didn’t know better; now that you do, I hope being as heart full of love as you are, you’ll choose different language in future.

[ex-khobar Andy]

From Wiktionary:

The American Heritage Guide to Contemporary Usage and Style (2005, →ISBN: "Etymologists can find no firm evidence that the verb welsh, meaning "to swindle a person by not paying a debt" or "to fail to fulfill an obligation," is derived from Welsh, the people of Wales."

[Joe Guy]

She's serious, Meade. Also, the appropriate word is rewelsh.

[MajGenl.Meade]

She's serious, Meade.

So is every fart when one is 69 years old, Joe.

[BoSoxGal]

From Wiktionary:

The American Heritage Guide to Contemporary Usage and Style (2005, →ISBN: "Etymologists can find no firm evidence that the verb welsh, meaning "to swindle a person by not paying a debt" or "to fail to fulfill an obligation," is derived from Welsh, the people of Wales."

Seriously? The OED gives the reference as a derogatory term referring to the Welsh, and numerous etymological sources point to lines in a British nursery rhyme (Taffy was a Welshman, Taffy was a thief) as also linked to the etymology of this phrase equating Welsh on a bet with a direct slur on the Welsh, who historically have been denigrated and oppressed by the British. There are dozens of sources online to provide this background, so it takes a careful choice to choose one that doesn’t even refer to it.

But sure, Wiktionary says it ain’t so, so it ain’t so. Forget the common fucking sense of it.

Hey I guess if Gob don’t mind, he gets to speak for the Welsh here. Forget that apologies have been issued on the floor of Parliament for the use of the phrase and a great many folks of Welsh descent (myself included) consider it disgusting. When there is a perfectly acceptable alternative that denigrates nobody by ethnicity or nationality and you scoff and refuse to choose that language over language that offends, you are quite simply a prick.

I don’t know why I am the least surprised to have the usual suspects defending racism and denigration of various ethnicities here, again.

[Gob]

Seeing as any Welsh person would know that we do not call ourselves Welsh, but Cymraeg or Cymry, (our country is Cymru,) I'm not in the least bit offended. Welsh is an Anglo-Saxon word, applied to all the inhabitants of GB.

The correct euphemism is "to welch".

[MajGenl.Meade]

Welsh [ welsh, welch ]
noun
one of a white, lop-eared breed of swine of Welsh origin that produces a large amount of lean meat.

Well, if Gob doesn't mind. . .

[BoSoxGal]

Seeing as any Welsh person would know that we do not call ourselves Welsh, but Cymraeg or Cymry, (our country is Cymru,) I'm not in the least bit offended. Welsh is an Anglo-Saxon word, applied to all the inhabitants of GB.

The correct euphemism is "to welch".

Pointless point since the derogatory term is used by British - as on this board, in fact - and plenty of Welsh people acknowledge it as derogatory and find it offensive. Zero surprise that he who denigrates others any chance he gets and laughs off racism and sexism and xenophobia would defend someone else engaging in it, even when his own people are the target.

[MajGenl.Meade]

OED

Welch
Origin: Mid 19th century of uncertain origin; perhaps from Welsh, on account of the formerly alleged dishonesty of Welsh people.

Dictionary dot com

Origin of welsh
First recorded in 1855–60; perhaps special use of Welsh
usage note for welsh
Use of this verb is sometimes perceived as insulting to or by the Welsh, the people of Wales. However, its actual origin may have nothing to do with Wales or its people; in fact, the verb is also spelled welch.

The American Heritage Guide to Contemporary Usage and Style

"Etymologists can find no firm evidence that the verb 'welsh', meaning to swindle a person by not paying a debt or to fail to fulfill an obligation, is derived from Welsh, the people of Wales"

[BoSoxGal]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-33238925

Peer apologises for using term 'welching' in Lords debate
23 June 2015

The peer said she did not mean to use a "derogatory" term
A government minister has apologised after inadvertently insulting Welsh members of the House of Lords by using the term "welching".

Lady Williams was answering a question about tackling rogue landlords, when she suggested a need to stop some "welching" on their obligations.

Labour peer, Lord Morris of Aberavon, challenged her on the use of the term, describing it as "inappropriate".
The origins of the term are disputed. It can be spelled 'welsh' or 'welch'.

The exchange took place during a short debate on protection of tenants in the private rented sector.


Lord Morris, a former attorney general who represented the Welsh town of Aberavon as its MP for 42 years until 2001, said: "If I heard the term correctly, the minister used the inappropriate term welching. Would she define it please?"

In response, Baroness William of Trafford said: "I did not mean it as a derogatory term to the Welsh... There is a term to welsh on an agreement... It is not an insult... I simply meant to not meet their obligations."
The Conservative local government minister later clarified that she "did not realise in using the term 'welch' it was an insult to anybody, and I do apologise if any bad feeling was felt by that term".

Baroness Williams is not the first government minister to apologise to the House for using the term "welch".
In 2012, the then education secretary Michael Gove apologised for his use of the word, and assured the Commons that he did not want to be accused of "Cymryphobia".

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the term's first recorded usage was in the 1860s in relation to a dispute over a horse racing bet, being understood to mean to "renege on payment of money owed as winnings".
In subsequent use, the OED says it has come to be defined as to "renege on a promise or agreement with someone", to "cheat or dupe" or to "fail to honour a debt or obligation".
It notes that the phrase is "sometimes considered offensive in view of the conjectured connection with Welsh people".

There are literally dozens of sources online that discuss the etymology of this phrase being derogatory toward Welsh people, and clearly many Welsh people believe that to be the case. Uncertainty doesn’t equate to your version of events.

Most telling of all is that a person who claims he is a good Christian with a heart full of love, when called out for use of a derogatory term, educated on why it’s considered derogatory by a great many people, and provided with a perfectly good alternative word - one that is thousands of years older in fact - defends, deflects, and denigrates yet further.

I bet you also use the term gyp or gypped rather than cheated, too. Because there is just the tiniest bit of uncertainty as to the etymology of that ethnic slur, too.

Heart full of love my fucking ass. Prick. Looking forward to burning your shit books in the next session roasting marshmallows over the fire pit.

[BoSoxGal]

Taffy was a Welshman
Language
Watch
Edit
"Taffy was a Welshman" is an English language nursery rhyme which was popular between the eighteenth and twentieth centuries. It has a Roud Folk Song Index number of 19237.[1]

"Taffy was a Welshman"
Nursery rhyme
Published
c. 1780
Songwriter(s)
Unknown
Lyrics Edit

Versions of this rhyme vary. Some common versions are:

Taffy was a Welshman, Taffy was a thief;
Taffy came to my house and stole a leg of beef;
I went to Taffy's house and Taffy was in bed;
I upped with the jerry pot and hit him on the head.

Taffy was a Welshman, Taffy was a thief;
Taffy came to my house and stole a piece of beef;
I went to Taffy's house, Taffy wasn't in;
I jumped upon his Sunday hat and poked it with a pin.

Taffy was a Welshman, Taffy was a sham;
Taffy came to my house and stole a piece of lamb;
I went to Taffy's house, Taffy was away,
I stuffed his socks with sawdust and filled his shoes with clay.

Taffy was a Welshman, Taffy was a cheat,
Taffy came to my house, and stole a piece of meat;
I went to Taffy's house, Taffy was not there,
I hung his coat and trousers to roast before a fire.[2]

Origins and history Edit

The term "Taffy" (pronounced with a short "a" to rhyme with Daffy Duck) may be a merging of the common Welsh name "[[David (disambiguation)|Dafydd]" (Welsh pronunciation: [ˈdavɨð]) and the Welsh river "Taff" on which Cardiff is built, and seems to have been in use by the mid-eighteenth century.[3] The term "Taffy" or "Taff" was not necessarily derogatory, though clearly it is in the verse and in many other contexts. In WW2 it was used without any slur, to refer to soldiers of Welsh origin, just as other regional slang names like Geordie, Scouse or Jock were used. Similarly a Welsh teacher in an English school might be referred to as "Taffy (surname)". However, the suggestion of a slur remains in the fact that Welsh people would very rarely refer to themselves as "A Taff", whereas, for example, Geordies might use that name for themselves. The rhyme may be related to one published in Tommy Thumb's Pretty Song Book, printed in London around 1744, which had the lyrics:

Taffy was born
On a Moon Shiny Night,
His head in the Pipkin,
His Heels upright.[2]

The earliest record we have of the better known rhyme is from Nancy Cock's Pretty Song Book, printed in London about 1780, which had one verse:

Taffy was a Welshman, Taffy was a thief;
Taffy came to my house and stole a piece of beef;
I went to Taffy's house, Taffy wasn't home;
Taffy came to my house and stole a marrow-bone.[2]

Similar versions were printed in collections in the late eighteenth century, however, in Songs for the Nursery printed in 1805, the first signs of violence were evident, ending with:

I went to Taffy's house, Taffy was in bed,
I took the marrow bone and beat about his head.[2]

In the 1840s James Orchard Halliwell collected a two verse version that followed this with:

I went to Taffy's house, Taffy was not in;
Taffy came to my house and stole a silver pin.
I went to Taffy's house, Taffy was in bed;
I took up a poker and threw it at his head.[4]

This version seems to have been particularly popular in the English counties that bordered Wales, where it was sung on Saint David's Day (1 March) complete with leek-wearing effigies of Welshmen.[2] The image of thieving Welshmen seems to have begun to die down by the mid-twentieth century, although the insulting rhyme was still sometimes used along with the name "Taffy" for any Welshman.

In 1960's and 70's London many people born in the 1920's sang this version.

Taffy was a Welshman, Taffy was a thief. Taffy came to my house and stole a piece of beef. I went to Taffy's house when taffy was in bed. Up with the piss pot and hit him on the head.

[BoSoxGal]

Welching: don’t go there
Hugh Muir
Contributor image for: Hugh Muir
Language is a tricky business – even a captain in the PC police like myself can give offence where none is intended
Tue 7 Oct 2014 00.30 EDT

As a captain in the so-called politically correct police, I’ve learned that there are arrogant types who use offensive language to assert some kind of superiority. And there are well-meaning types who just get it wrong. I always think it vital to know which is which. For one can deploy words and phrases without thinking about where they come from and whether they might give offence, not least because common usage erodes specific meaning. Therein lies danger.

On Sunday, preparing for What the Papers Say on Radio 4, I wrote a script which said protesters in Hong Kong were angry at China “welching” on a deal to preserve human rights. “You’d be advised to change that”, said the producer sagely. I’ve looked it up. And found that the phrase has long been considered derogatory of the Welsh, perpetuating an old English stereotype that the Welsh are untrustworthy.

I should have known, as Michael Gove had to apologise for using it in 2012. One would always wish to do better than Gove. As is usually the case with history and vocabulary, the derivation of welching is debated. There is a version that says it was born of English bookies who owed money fleeing over the border into Wales to escape their creditors.

Another, apparently credited to AJP Taylor, suggests the first man to use the Gaming Act 1845 as an excuse to escape paying gambling debts was a Mr Welch. Whatever the truth of it, “reneging” worked just as well in the script. Who wants to give offence? Apart from Rod Liddle, but that is how he makes a living.

[BoSoxGal]

Like it or not, human beings have their prejudices about “those people” who belong to other groups. Not my religion?...those people! Not my ethnicity?...those people! Not my social class?...those people!

Over the centuries, cultures have found ways of holding The Other at a distance: by creating stereotypes. One of the best tools for embedding negative stereotypes in culture is through language. We were reminded of this by a recent kerfuffle in the U.K. involving British Education Secretary Michael Gove (pictured below). When speaking to Members of Parliament, he talked about an invitation to a site visit which he then later backed out of. Gove announced his change of mind, saying he had "welshed on the deal."

What was Michael Gove's Mistake?

For non-native speakers, I’ll explain the expression “to welsh on” means to renege on or retract an earlier promise. Unfortunately, its roots come from an unkind characterization of people living in Wales (the Welsh). The stereotype is that you can’t trust the Welsh because they will go back on earlier commitments. Clearly, if a sensitive speaker knows the anti-ethnic sentiments of an expression, s/he will no longer use it. Few people choose to be knowingly disrespectful in public.

Not few enough.

[BoSoxGal]

Welsh (adj.)
Old English Wielisc, Wylisc (West Saxon), Welisc, Wælisc (Anglian and Kentish) "foreign; British (not Anglo-Saxon), Welsh; not free, servile," from Wealh, Walh "Celt, Briton, Welshman, non-Germanic foreigner;" in Tolkien's definition, "common Gmc. name for a man of what we should call Celtic speech," but also applied in Germanic languages to speakers of Latin, hence Old High German Walh, Walah "Celt, Roman, Gaulish," and Old Norse Val-land "France," Valir "Gauls, non-Germanic inhabitants of France" (Danish vælsk "Italian, French, southern"); from Proto-Germanic *Walkhiskaz, from a Celtic tribal name represented by Latin Volcæ (Caesar) "ancient Celtic tribe in southern Gaul."


As a noun, "the Britons," also "the Welsh language," both from Old English. The word survives in Wales, Cornwall, Walloon, walnut, and in surnames Walsh and Wallace. Borrowed in Old Church Slavonic as vlachu, and applied to the Rumanians, hence Wallachia. Among the English, Welsh was used disparagingly of inferior or substitute things (such as Welsh cricket "louse" (1590s); Welsh comb "thumb and four fingers" (1796), and compare welch (v.)). Welsh rabbit is from 1725, also perverted by folk-etymology as Welsh rarebit (1785).

welch (v.)
1857, racing slang, "to refuse or avoid payment of money laid as a bet," probably a disparaging use of the national name Welsh. Related: Welched; welching.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/welsh

[dales]

I see BSG is trying to match Darrin in posting counts.

[MajGenl.Meade]

I read all those before I posted, BSG.

By all means, carry on venting, abusing and trolling. Your methods of discourse remind me of Donald Trump at his most offensive.

[BoSoxGal]

I read all those before I posted, BSG.

By all means, carry on venting, abusing and trolling. Your methods of discourse remind me of Donald Trump at his most offensive.

Funny you should say that. A man who has been first nicely, then much more vehemently explained to as to why his language is offensive to other human beings and who, rather than a simple acknowledgement that he’s (perhaps inadvertently) caused offense and an expression of willingness to avoid repeating the offense in future, chooses instead to double and triple and quadruple down on using it, defending it, and then making personal attacks on the horrible human being who dared to challenge his perfect vision of himself as master of language and charitable endeavor.

Yes, YOU are a whole lot like Trump.

[Joe Guy]

Damn!! From the reaction I'm seeing about Meade's usage of the word 'Welsh" being offensive, it seems it's as bad as if he had yelled the word Renege at a basketball game.

[dales]

Joe Guy:

Please don't be so niggardly.