Plan B Forum

Posted: **Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:01 pm**

Wales has said a resounding Yes in the referendum on direct law-making powers for the assembly.

When the last result was declared, all 22 counties except one - Monmouthshire - backed change. Turnout is provisionally put at 35%.

The final result saw 517,132 vote Yes, and 297,380 say No - a 63.5% to 36.5% winning margin.

The vote will give the assembly direct law-making power in 20 devolved areas, such as health and education.

First Minister Carwyn Jones told celebrating supporters in the Senedd, the assembly building in Cardiff Bay: "Today an old nation came of age."

Deputy First Minister and Plaid Cymru leader Ieuan Wyn Jones said it marked "the beginning of a new era of Welsh devolution - the decade to deliver for Wales".

"To demand respect, you must first display self respect," he said. "Today we have done just that, and the rest of the world can now sit up and take notice of the fact that our small nation, here on the western edge of the continent of Europe, has demonstrated pride in who we are, and what we all stand for."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-12648649

Posted: **Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:48 am**

Nothing to do with the topic but it made me think of this"

Ulster says No!

...but the man from Del Monte says Yes and he's an orangeman...

Just thought I'd share...

Posted: **Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:30 pm**

Turnout is provisionally put at 35%.

Gee, we do better than that here...

Posted: **Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:16 pm**

"Today we have done just that, and the rest of the world can now sit up and take notice of the fact that our small nation, here on the western edge of the continent of Europe, has demonstrated pride in who we are, and what we all stand for."

Something to do with sheep, innit?

Posted: **Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:48 pm**

What laws would the Welsh enact which are significantly different from those in the rest of the UK?

yrs,
rubato

Posted: **Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:02 pm**

It's a bit complicated, within the specified 20 devolved subject areas Wales can now effectively pass any laws it chooses without needing Westminster approval - it's limited to those 20 subject areas so it cant do anything about things like Income Tax, VAT, Defense, Welfare Benefits etc. which still come under Westminster but on things like Health, Education, Housing, Local Government etc. it can do what it likes now within Wales.

It can play around with the local government council tax brackets to raise extra income or reduce them if it so chooses to attract more people into Wales. Unlike the rest of the UK, Wales already has free prescriptions and free hospital parking, one of the recent bones of contention was that Westminster had been making moves to try and overturn that as the English and Scots were not very happy about having to pay when the Welsh got theirs free and Westminster said it was too expensive to bring in across the whole of the UK.

As you probably know the current Westminster government has raised University tuition fees causing widespread protests - this doesn't apply for students resident in Wales attending Welsh universities as the Welsh Assembly can set its own tuition fee which could be higher or lower than those in England.

Similarly with residential care for the elderly or those with health needs the Welsh Assembly has set a flat rate someone has to contribute towards the costs, in England its means tested, which means that more people will get state assistance in their old age or declining health in Wales than they would in England.

Wales has its own Civil Service - so again it's not affected by the cuts Westminster are making in public service posts though the Assembly can choose to make cuts of its own or indeed increase public service posts if they deem it necessary (that was one of the things the "No" campaign focused on claiming that public sector jobs would increase considerably following a Yes vote with a resulting financial burden).

Welsh language - within Wales Welsh is a compulsory subject in all schools up to the age of 16, the Assembly passed a new law in December which made Welsh the official language of Wales - that might seem strange to non Welsh people but it was a very important step for us Welsh to have our language officially recognised once again, even though I am not a fluent Welsh speaker myself at the moment (I am currently relearning) the language is very important to me, and I have never ever forgotten the resentment I felt when I was working in the DSS in Wales at having to have information leaflets available in fecking Polish, Chinese French, German, Russian, Japanese etc but we were NOT allowed to have them in Welsh for our own first language Welsh speakers in our own bloody country!

As I said theres 20 different areas which the Assembly can now work with to make Wales specific laws so those above are just a few examples, I think it is a step closer to full devolution and independence which is again what the say "no" campaign was trying to suggest but frankly I would be in favour of that anyway, but I dont really see that happening for decades, if at all in my lifetime.

Posted: **Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:26 pm**

RB - nicely put. I always wondered why Wales was treated like a 2nd class citizen when Scotland got full devolution (what do they have that the Welsh doesn't? Apart from Billy Connelly).

When I was growing up I was offered the choice - the CHOICE between French and Welsh. What a bloody stupid thing - great way to kill off the language. Good to see things improving there.

It is called the United Kingdom. Though hardly united with devolution and no king on the throne - perhaps rename to the Disunited Queendom?

Posted: **Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:55 pm**

So Were/are people going arouind chanting "Are we not men"? to get this passed?

Posted: **Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:11 am**

Posted: **Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:21 am**

Welsh language - within Wales Welsh is a compulsory subject in all schools up to the age of 16, the Assembly passed a new law in December which made Welsh the official language of Wales -

When I was growing up I was offered the choice - the CHOICE between French and Welsh. What a bloody stupid thing - great way to kill off the language. Good to see things improving there.

Well, I hate to be the Anglo skunk at the Welsh picnic, but I have to say that it's not immediately apparent to me why compelling kids to spend 10 years using up a percentage of their school time to learn an archaic language that will be of absolutely no use to them anywhere outside the confines of their small province would be characterized as an "improvement"....

I'm certainly not knocking anyone's desire to preserve their heritage; and it's a wonderful thing when the younger generation wants to learn more about that heritage....

But frankly, this looks like a "feel good" policy that has more to do with the parents than the kids....

I have never ever forgotten the resentment I felt when I was working in the DSS in Wales at having to have information leaflets available in fecking Polish, Chinese French, German, Russian, Japanese etc

I don't blame you; they should all have been written in English; if you're going to live in a country, you should learn it's language.

the official language of Wales -

I don't know what the legal ramifications of that are for Wales, but I can see lots of potential problems, if it has meaning that goes beyond the purely symbolic....

Does it mean, for example, that if someone wants to build a manufacturing plant in Wales, that all of the legal contracts and documents attendant to the project have to be translated into Welsh? And does it further mean that it is the Welsh language version of the documents that will have force of law if a dispute arises?

If so, I can see where this "feel good" decision might create a lot of disincentive for investment in Wales.

Posted: **Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:53 am**

Lord Jim wrote:Well, I hate to be the Anglo skunk at the Welsh picnic, but I have to say that it's not immediately apparent to me why compelling kids to spend 10 years using up a percentage of their school time to learn an archaic language that will be of absolutely no use to them anywhere outside the confines of their small province would be characterized as an "improvement"....

I used to think the same as this, especially when I was the receiving end of the choice. But there are a number of issues here

1. It is a sure way to let one of the oldest languages in the world die. Unless you are of the mindset that everyone should speak the same language I would suggest that in itself is bad.
2. Compelling kids to learn anything not of use outside their eventual lives would surely fall under the same bracket. So, in my case let's get rid of history, geography and music for starters.
3. Kids actually don't know *what* is good for them usually. Most adults I speak to from Wales now regret the fact they can't speak Welsh.
4. Learning a second language - any second language - prepares a person for learning others and makes the learning much easier. My wife speaks 4 languages fluently (to my ear anyway - she would only admit to 3) and has repeatedly told me this. She has far greater experience than I and I would bow to her judgement in this, not being qualified to make the assertion myself.

Posted: **Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:57 am**

Lord Jim wrote:I don't blame you; they should all have been written in English; if you're going to live in a country, you should learn it's language.

I don't believe RB was bemoaning the fact that the leaflets had been written in these languages - just that Welsh should have been among them. The leaflets would have been in English too.

Lord Jim wrote:Does it mean, for example, that if someone wants to build a manufacturing plant in Wales, that all of the legal contracts and documents attendant to the project have to be translated into Welsh? And does it further mean that it is the Welsh language version of the documents that will have force of law if a dispute arises?

No, I don't see it does, unless there is a compelling need.

Posted: **Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:32 am**

1. It is a sure way to let one of the oldest languages in the world die.

No one is suggesting that this language should "die"....

Latin is called "the dead language" but even it hasn't died....

That's really a strawman; the Welsh language isn't going "to die" if every single school kid in Wales doesn't have to study it for ten years...the Welsh language still wont be dead...

Posted: **Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:05 am**

Jim, does the fact that you ignored the other 3 points I made mean you don't disagree with them?

Lord Jim wrote:That's really a strawman;

Nope, you need to check your definitions there.

A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position

I didn't misrepresent your position.

Lord Jim wrote:No one is suggesting that this language should "die"....

Re-read my statement. I don't disagree. Nobody did suggest it should die. Thus no strawman.

I simply believe that if nobody does learn it then it will die. Different to Latin because there are many more people available to learn Latin than Welsh, and a reason given for learning Latin is that it forms the roots of many European languages.

Posted: **Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:07 am**

I don't believe RB was bemoaning the fact that the leaflets had been written in these languages - just that Welsh should have been among them.

I'm sure that was her point....

My point is, that they should only have been written in the language of the country these folks choose to live in... and nothing else...

To bring this point home, try to imagine for a a moment, moving to France and announcing:

"I've decided I want to stay in France, but I have absolutely no intention of learning how to speak French, or learning French customs, but nevertheless, I expect you to hand me a ballot written in English and let me vote in your elections..."

Let me know how that works out...

Posted: **Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:08 am**

The language was virtually eradicated Jim, it hung on by the skin of its teeth.

The Welsh Not or Welsh Note was a punishment system used in Welsh schools in the late 19th and early 20th century to dissuade children from speaking Welsh. It was represented as a piece of wood, inscribed with the letters "WN", that was hung round the necks of children who spoke Welsh in some schools in the 19th century. The "not" was given to any child overheard speaking Welsh, who would pass it to a different child if overheard speaking Welsh. By the end of the day, the wearer of the "not" would be given a lashing. The idea of the "not" was to discourage pupils from speaking Welsh, at a time when English was considered by some to be the only suitable medium of instruction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_knot

Posted: **Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:15 am**

I simply believe that if nobody does learn it then it will die

Well, it seems to me that there's a fairly wide range between " if nobody does learn it then it will die" ...

And requiring every single child in a Wales between the ages of 6 and 16 to have 10 years of compulsory "education" in it....

Posted: **Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:19 am**

Jim, does the fact that you ignored the other 3 points I made mean you don't disagree with them?

I know that was intended as comedy,

but since you asked:

3. Kids actually don't know *what* is good for them usually

I'll stipulate to that.

In fact, I'll go one step further....

Kids don't know what are good for them generally....

Posted: **Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:56 am**

Lord Jim wrote:Well, it seems to me that there's a fairly wide range between " if nobody does learn it then it will die" ...

And requiring every single child in a Wales between the ages of 6 and 16 to have 10 years of compulsory "education" in it....

I don't see why children living in Wales should not learn the national language. I can't see it would hurt them. They are, after all, compelled to suffer religious education. In England they are compelled to learn English. If you give them the choice what to learn then I do suspect Welsh really will die out and all Welsh children will be experts on Britney Spears

Compulsion is good - not just for them but for society in general

Posted: **Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:33 pm**

I can't see it would hurt them.

Well, you'll get no argument from me there...

Wouldn't hurt them to hop around on one foot while singing The Lumber Jack Song from Monty Python ...

Wouldn't do them a whole lot of good either...

They are, after all, compelled to suffer religious education.

That's an excellent analogy ...

To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever dropped dead from reciting The Lord's Prayer....

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