2020 Election results

[Bicycle Bill]

Something was wrong with Gob's link.  I think he left something off at the end.
Use this one instead.  link here

-"BB"-

[Econoline]

[ex-khobar Andy]

36 long days until the Trumpectomy. It can't come soon enough.

[Darren]

36 long days until the Trumpectomy. It can't come soon enough.

Maybe ... maybe not. Looks like a contested election to me. With the forensic audit from Michigan, things aren't what they seem.

What does that mean when the House convenes to unseal the electoral votes and Nancy Pelosi is not in charge?

[Bicycle Bill]

1) Why would Pelosi not be in charge?  Or do you think the Democrats will select a new Speaker of the House?
2) And even if that were the case, I assume that whoever would replace her as the Speaker of the House can probably count too, and will come up with the same numbers ... 302 for Biden; 232 for 'Bye, Don'.

I just hope Trump does try to hang on and force the issue.  It will be amusing to watch the US Capitol Police — who answers to Congress, not the POTUS — drag him out of the White House by his heels.

-"BB"-

[Darren]

1) Why would Pelosi not be in charge?  Or do you think the Democrats will select a new Speaker of the House?
2) And even if that were the case, I assume that whoever would replace her as the Speaker of the House can probably count too, and will come up with the same numbers ... 302 for Biden; 232 for 'Bye, Don'.

I just hope Trump does try to hang on and force the issue.  It will be amusing to watch the US Capitol Police — who answers to Congress, not the POTUS — drag him out of the White House by his heels.

-"BB"-

Pence will preside.

[BoSoxGal]

This is simply how it’s done by constitutional mandate, it doesn’t ‘mean’ anything.

The vice president's other constitutionally mandated duty is to receive from the states the tally of electoral ballots cast for president and vice president and to open the certificates "in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives," so that the total votes can be counted (Article II, section 1). Only a few happy vice presidents—John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Martin Van Buren, and George H. W. Bush—had the pleasure of announcing their own election as president. Many more were chagrined to announce the choice of a rival candidate for the office.

This is how it’s done with grace and respect for our democracy over personal interest.

[Darren]

This is simply how it’s done by constitutional mandate, it doesn’t ‘mean’ anything.

The vice president's other constitutionally mandated duty is to receive from the states the tally of electoral ballots cast for president and vice president and to open the certificates "in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives," so that the total votes can be counted (Article II, section 1). Only a few happy vice presidents—John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Martin Van Buren, and George H. W. Bush—had the pleasure of announcing their own election as president. Many more were chagrined to announce the choice of a rival candidate for the office.

What is the procedure when an objection is made from the floor in the form of a motion that is seconded?

[Bicycle Bill]

What BSG posted.  Pence is just there to show that he can read out loud as one of his last official acts.
And after January 20th, he's back in Indiana and just a footnote in the history books.

Maybe, just maybe, since he is supposed to 'receive from the states the tally of electoral ballots cast for president and vice president and to open the certificates "in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives," so that the total votes can be counted,' he's going to come in and claim that he can't do this because the dog ate them in the meantime.....

And a motion from the floor?  Whatinthehell kind of motion are you talking about — a motion to suspend the Constitution in order to disregard the duly-sanctioned vote of the Electoral College??  Seriously — if something like 79 court cases to try to subvert election processes or to overturn election results have gone nowhere, just how far do you think any kind of a motion from the floor, whether seconded or not, is going to get?

-"BB"-

[Darren]

What BSG posted.  Pence is just there to show that he can read out loud as one of his last official acts.
And after January 20th, he's back in Indiana and just a footnote in the history books.

Maybe, just maybe, since he is supposed to 'receive from the states the tally of electoral ballots cast for president and vice president and to open the certificates "in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives," so that the total votes can be counted,' he's going to come in and claim that he can't do this because the dog ate them in the meantime.....

And a motion from the floor?  Whatinthehell kind of motion are you talking about — a motion to suspend the Constitution in order to disregard the duly-sanctioned vote of the Electoral College??  Seriously — if something like 79 court cases to try to subvert election processes or to overturn election results have gone nowhere, just how far do you think any kind of a motion from the floor, whether seconded or not, is going to get?

-"BB"-

What happens if the electoral vote is challenged in Congress?

[BoSoxGal]

Are you confused about which party controls the house of representatives?

[datsunaholic]

IF the electoral vote is challenged in congress - and it will be, we all know that - it requires BOTH houses to approve that challenge in order for the challenge to be accepted.

There is no way the challenge will be approved by the House of Representatives. It might not even be approved by the Senate. So it will go no further. It's all political theater by a political party that is trying to hold on to power by any means.

[Darren]

Are you confused about which party controls the house of representatives?

It's not about control. It's about the 12th amendment. One state, one vote.

[Guinevere]

Lets just carefully examine the 12th Amendment, and point out how Darren is completely ignoring the procedure set forth.

Here’s the Amendment in full:

The Electors shall meet in their respective states and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice-President, and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate;-The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;-The person having the greatest Number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice. And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the fourth day of March next following, then the Vice-President shall act as President, as in the case of the death or other constitutional disability of the President-The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice-President, shall be the Vice-President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed, and if no person have a majority, then from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice-President; a quorum for the purpose shall consist of two-thirds of the whole number of Senators, and a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice. But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States.

Here are my annotations:

The Electors shall meet in their respective states and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice-President, and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate;-

This is what happened today. The Electors met, and they voted as directed by the voters of their states. 306 votes for Biden and 232 for Trump.

The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;-

Pence and a bucket of warm spit get to preside over the counting, via the reports of the electors, in a joint session

The person having the greatest Number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed;

Whoever gets the majority (i.e., at least 270 votes) wins. Congress has no authority to override the reports of the electors. It only gets to count them and report the count. There is no realistic way to hijack these proceedings or otherwise change the vote. The electors have not only voted, they have announced the certifications of their votes. To do anything otherwise than read and certify the count would be illegal, a coup, and most certainly sedition.

and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President.

If there is no candidate with a majority — but of course there is— the House choses the President, by ballot

But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice.

If the House must chose, from the top 3 candidates, they do vote en bloc - each state receiving one vote. The representatives must agree on the vote to be cast, and typically if there is not agreement, they do not cast a ballot. 26 votes are needed to win. So nicely theoretical, but as I said above, there is no Constitutionally valid basis to do anything but certify the vote. Even if there is an objection to the certification from the floor, such a motion would be out of order and should not be heard.

And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the fourth day of March next following, then the Vice-President shall act as President, as in the case of the death or other constitutional disability of the President-

If no winner, the VP acts as President. But again, anything other than the confirmation of Joe Biden as President is treasonous, seditious, fantasy.

The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice-President, shall be the Vice-President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed, and if no person have a majority, then from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice-President;

The VP is chosen by the Senate, one vote per Senator (no en bloc voting), from the top two candidates for VP. In case you missed it, Kamala Harris will be confirmed as the Vice President, consistent with the votes if the electors.

Finally, I note that both the House and Senate Parliamentarians could be involved in advising on these procedures. They are excellent lawyers, neutral to the bone, and will get it right.

[datsunaholic]

(Guin beat me to it, with much more detail)




Darren, again, you're jumping a step.

As it stands, Biden has a majority of electors, and the election has been certified by all 50 States. Signed and delivered.

The 12th Amendment's clause of a vote in the house of representatives will not happen because the majority exists.

Oh, but the challenge! The electoral votes will be challenged!

For a challenge to be accepted, it would have to be passed by both houses.

In the HoR, it would be a normal vote of the 438 Representatives. And THAT will NOT pass. Period. House Repugnantcans can throw all the tantrums they want on the house floor and that won't change a damn thing.

Darren, you are living in a fantasy world that Trump will be declared the victor of the 2020 Presidential Election. Not. Going. To. Happen.

But hell, you'll still be claiming that Trump can win the 2020 election AFTER Biden is inaugurated, just to get out of those bets you made, claiming it's "still undecided, Trump will prevail".

[BoSoxGal]

[Econoline]

As for the process of counting the votes in a joint session of Congress, and dealing with objections...

The current process was circumscribed in the Electoral Count Act of 1887.

It says that as the tellers read through the electoral results state by state, members of the House and Senate can submit objections in writing to a given state’s results. The objections only hold weight if they are co-signed by at least one member of each chamber; if not, they fail and the session quickly moves on.

It is not uncommon for a member of just one chamber to submit an objection as an act of protest. It happened most recently in 2017, when several Democrats objected to Mr. Trump’s win in key states, based on Russian election interference. But Mr. Trump’s opponent, Hillary Clinton, had already conceded and no Democratic senator joined the effort, so the objections were quickly rejected.

Instances of a House member and a senator teaming up are more rare and last took place in 2005. If it occurred, the joint session would immediately pause so lawmakers could go back to their respective chambers to debate the objection for up to two hours. They would then vote on whether to toss out the electoral results of the state in question. Both chambers would have to agree to reject the votes, something that has not happened since the Reconstruction era.

“By ensuring that both chambers must reject a submission, you reduce the risk of Congress going rogue electorally and repudiating the results of a state,” said Edward B. Foley, a constitutional law professor at Ohio State University who studies the electoral process.

Mr. Trump’s allies, led by Representative Mo Brooks of Alabama, have their sights set on challenging five states — Arizona, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Georgia and Wisconsin — where they claim that widespread voting fraud occurred, despite the fact that all five states have certified that the results are valid and there is no evidence of any widespread impropriety.

The key will be recruiting a Republican senator to join them, and so far none has publicly committed to doing so. Without a senator, their efforts will quickly fail and Mr. Biden could be formally declared president-elect in under an hour.

If a senator did sign on to challenge the results, Republicans could force Congress into a final, messy debate over Mr. Trump’s refusal to concede defeat and his baseless claims of election fraud, which have been roundly rejected in court.

Given Democrats’ control of the House and Republicans’ narrow Senate majority, almost no one expects that they would have the votes to succeed in disqualifying a state — much less five. But the debate and vote alone would put Republicans in a difficult position, forcing them to choose between an uncompromising president and their belief in the electoral process. Their choices could likely go a long way in setting the future course of the party, faith in American elections and the perceived legitimacy of a Biden presidency by the Republican base.

At the end of the process, it will be left to Mr. Pence to declare Mr. Biden the winner once and for all, albeit in tangled prose.

“This announcement of the state of the vote by the president of the Senate shall be deemed sufficient declaration of the persons elected president and vice president of the United States, each for a term beginning on the 20th day of January 2017,” Mr. Biden himself declared when he oversaw the tallying for Mr. Trump’s vote as vice president in 2017.

Mr. Pence is far from the first vice president to be put in the uncomfortable position of certifying his own ticket’s loss. Overseeing the session in 2001, Vice President Al Gore had to rule against objections that would have delivered the presidency to himself if they were sustained, eventually declaring George W. Bush the victor.

But Mr. Pence serves a uniquely mercurial president with a penchant for disregarding the democratic process. The joint session will be a final dilemma, forcing him to balance his loyalty to Mr. Trump and his own political interests against his constitutional and legal obligations.

Precedent and statute give the vice president little wiggle room.

“There’s not much he can do,” Donald A. Ritchie, the Senate’s former in-house historian, said in an interview. “His job is really just to read them out aloud. It’s up to the members if they are going to do anything.”

His only other option may simply be not to show up, leaving the task of overseeing the session to Senator Charles E. Grassley, Republican of Iowa, who is the Senate president pro tempore, a distinction reserved for the longest-serving member of the chamber’s majority party.

source

Darren: note that this process of Congress sustaining or dismissing an objection to one (or more) state's electors is completely different from the process of the House picking a President when no candidate has a majority of the Electoral votes, with which you seem to have this confused. When breaking an Electoral tie, or otherwise choosing between candidates without an Electoral majority, the result is determined in the House of Representatives, with each state casting only one vote. In the situation we're talking about here—in order to accept/reject an objection to one particular state's Electors—each house votes the normal way (just as when voting on a bill), with each Senator and each Representative casting one vote.

[Guinevere]

[ex-khobar Andy]

He could get Santa's reindeer to help. Named after the lead hauler, let's call it the Donner Party. The state with the highest number of electoral votes is California and I hear it's very nice this time of year. I think they should head off in that direction, now, without delay. They can pick up food on the way . . .

[eddieq]

I find it interesting that the group of people who railed against the impeachment as "trying to overturn the results of an election" are actually trying to pull every underhanded trick to do just that.

Once President-Elect Biden becomes President Biden, I certainly hope these "patriots" will do their patriotic duty and support his administration. Afterall, we have been told for 4 years that patriots support the president and if you're an American, it's your duty to support him. Go stand on the corner waving your Biden flags.