It's always a "coincidence" when they get caught

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Sue U
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Re: It's always a "coincidence" when they get caught

Post by Sue U »

Jarlaxle wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:15 am
I have never seen it in that context until this thread. The last time I saw it, it was used in a Dungeons And Dragons module.
So you might know them when you see them:

https://www.adl.org/education/reference ... thala-rune

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Re: It's always a "coincidence" when they get caught

Post by Jarlaxle »

One of those (inverted) is used as a Dungeons and Dragons holy symbol. (Ralishaz the Unlooked For, god of misfortune.) Another (Norse valknot) looks like the logo of a commercial cleaning product company.
Last edited by Jarlaxle on Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: It's always a "coincidence" when they get caught

Post by Jarlaxle »

ex-khobar Andy wrote:
Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:49 pm
I'm not sure I would have seen that if it had not been pointed out to me, but that's the nature of a dog whistle. Those who know it (i.e., dogs) recognize it for what it is. Those of us who are not dogs or white supremacists don't even notice.

The OK sign / white power thing is similar. When I was taught to scuba dive, it's the universal "Are you OK?" question and "I'm OK" response. (Actually my very first open water dive was a Royal Navy training course, English Channel, February 1971, and you could not see six inches in front of your mask. The OK sign was useless. We banged twice on the tank with the knife to indicate still alive and functional despite freezing our balls or tits off.) When years later I undertook training to be an instructor, the trainer told us to do the sign very crisply. The three fingers straight up and tight together. Consequently that's how I always taught it. (The 'thumbs up' sign means [depending on context] 'Let's go up' or 'You go up' so it cannot be substituted for OK.) The White Power symbol, as I understand it, uses the three fingers to represent the W and the tail of the P.

With the 'tight' version of the sign it's difficult to make the case that it symbolizes the W. I haven't been diving in a while and AFAIK there are no plans to phase out this sign, and if I were on a dive I would certainly continue to use it. Now that I think about it, when I was trained in use of hazmat gear and for much the same reason - verbal communication is sometimes difficult - we were taught the same basic hand signals to indicate OK or some problem.

So I would at least for now use the OK sign in an appropriate context. But I think I would reject its use in a casual context.
Pretty sure that started as an online hoax by someone on 4Chan.

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Re: It's always a "coincidence" when they get caught

Post by Jarlaxle »

Scooter wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:28 am
Jarlaxle wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:17 am
That is...nonsensical.
Which are you disputing, the very idea of dog whistles, or the description given of the way that they ideally would work?
It's circular logic. Anyone using the symbol must know what it means because many people don't know what it means because only certain people know what they use the symbol to mean so therefore using it means you are a Nazi. It's on the level of claiming my co-worker is a Nazi because he has a tattoo of a symbol similar to one on the graphic Sue posted.

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Re: It's always a "coincidence" when they get caught

Post by Scooter »

Uh, no, but ok.
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Re: It's always a "coincidence" when they get caught

Post by Bicycle Bill »

Jarlaxle wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:04 pm
Scooter wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:28 am
Jarlaxle wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:17 am
That is...nonsensical.
Which are you disputing, the very idea of dog whistles, or the description given of the way that they ideally would work?
It's circular logic. Anyone using the symbol must know what it means because many people don't know what it means because only certain people know what they use the symbol to mean so therefore using it means you are a Nazi. It's on the level of claiming my co-worker is a Nazi because he has a tattoo of a symbol similar to one on the graphic Sue posted.
No, but when he comes for you as an 'undesirable', 'untermensch', or a 'blood traitor', then maybe you'll start to understand.
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Re: It's always a "coincidence" when they get caught

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

Think masonic handshakes, Jarl. If you shake hands with a freemason - depending on the level he is at - (and AFAIK they are all men but that might be changing) - he will press your thumb or stroke your little finger with his or whatever. If you are not a mason you'll think nothing of it. If you are, you will recognize it immediately and respond accordingly.

It's not circular logic at all.

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Re: It's always a "coincidence" when they get caught

Post by Big RR »

It's on the level of claiming my co-worker is a Nazi because he has a tattoo of a symbol similar to one on the graphic Sue posted.
While there may be some exceptions, I doubt many people would get a tattoo of a symbol (or anything else for that matter) if they did not understand what it meant. Indeed, I cannot conceive of anyone being so idiotic.

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Re: It's always a "coincidence" when they get caught

Post by Sue U »

Big RR wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:35 pm
While there may be some exceptions, I doubt many people would get a tattoo of a symbol (or anything else for that matter) if they did not understand what it meant. Indeed, I cannot conceive of anyone being so idiotic.
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Re: It's always a "coincidence" when they get caught

Post by Big RR »

Sue--Actually, I was thinking of Asian characters when I wrote that; I'd bet most people who got those were relying on the tattoo artist who told them what it meant, and were mistaken, either as the butt of a cruel joke or a mistake. An I know a few people who got tattoos of Asian characters who had them drawn first on people and went to many sources to be sure it said what they thought it did. But I doubt than many, if any, people would go into a tattoo studio and say "Here, tattoo this character on my; I don't know what it means, but it looks pretty", just like I doubt that many would have themselves tattooed with a design that they didn't, at least, think know what it meant. Likewise, because these desgins are used by white supremacists as symbols to identify each other, I doubt that the artists that offer these designs will tattoo people with these images who just thought they were attractive, nor would they think it funny to tattoo with the image in the way that someone tattooing someone with the Asian character for "asshole" might. There may be some wannabes, but then they at least have an idea as to what this means.

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Re: It's always a "coincidence" when they get caught

Post by Crackpot »

There are more than a few that read as gibberish simply because there is no direct translation of what they want and the Artist just gave his best literal translation.

My hats off to the artist who translated “lover of Asian beauty” into “Creepy white guy” tho.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Re: It's always a "coincidence" when they get caught

Post by Jarlaxle »

Big RR wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:35 pm
It's on the level of claiming my co-worker is a Nazi because he has a tattoo of a symbol similar to one on the graphic Sue posted.
While there may be some exceptions, I doubt many people would get a tattoo of a symbol (or anything else for that matter) if they did not understand what it meant. Indeed, I cannot conceive of anyone being so idiotic.
It's a very common symbol that I suspect most people have NO association with Nazis: a Celtic cross.

Again: the Nazis used a LOT of symbols, most of which long predated them and most of which had many other meanings. (Off the top of my head, their "Gott mit us!" slogan was used in the 17th century by king Gustavus Adolphus II of Sweden.) The Maltese cross (used to this day by the German military) predates Germany-it dates to at least the twelfth century. (Heraldry of the Knights Hospitaller.) It was used in Poland ~1700, and was the highest military decoration in Prussia (and later Germany) from the mid 18th century to the end of WW1 and the abolition of the monarchy in Germany.

How long before someone decides this is a Nazi symbol...
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Re: It's always a "coincidence" when they get caught

Post by Jarlaxle »

ex-khobar Andy wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:13 pm
Think masonic handshakes, Jarl. If you shake hands with a freemason - depending on the level he is at - (and AFAIK they are all men but that might be changing) - he will press your thumb or stroke your little finger with his or whatever. If you are not a mason you'll think nothing of it. If you are, you will recognize it immediately and respond accordingly.

It's not circular logic at all.
OK, maybe if I explain it one more time...just because I press with my thumb during a handshake does not mean I am a Freemason. It just means I pressed his hand with my thumb.

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Re: It's always a "coincidence" when they get caught

Post by Econoline »

Jarlaxle wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:05 pm
OK, maybe if I explain it one more time...just because I press with my thumb during a handshake does not mean I am a Freemason. It just means I pressed his hand with my thumb.
...and if the person you're shaking hands with happens to be a Freemason, he will think you are part of his own special in-group, and respond accordingly.



ETA: If this Image is such a "very common symbol"...
...I'm sure you'll have no trouble finding many examples of other political organizations
that have used it, and
many other examples of similar stages being used at high-profile public events. Right?
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Re: It's always a "coincidence" when they get caught

Post by Jarlaxle »

Econoline wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:59 pm
Jarlaxle wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:05 pm
OK, maybe if I explain it one more time...just because I press with my thumb during a handshake does not mean I am a Freemason. It just means I pressed his hand with my thumb.
...and if the person you're shaking hands with happens to be a Freemason, he will think you are part of his own special in-group, and respond accordingly.



ETA: If this Image is such a "very common symbol"...
...I'm sure you'll have no trouble finding many examples of other political organizations
that have used it, and
many other examples of similar stages being used at high-profile public events. Right?
Reread what I posted. Read for comprehension, using your reading finger and reading each word very carefully. Do this until you understand why I did not actually post what you claim I posted.

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Re: It's always a "coincidence" when they get caught

Post by Jarlaxle »

Knew I'd seen that Norse Valknot before! As I noted: a commercial cleaning product company. (They're usually sold in the US as "Tork", which they've owned since the late 70s.)

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And I was right, I DID see one of those in a Dungeons & Dragons game recently.

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This (top row, third from left in Sue's graphic) was first noted in 1982's "Deities and Demigods of Greyhawk" series, by Gary Gygax: the symbol of Tritherion, god of individuality, retribution, and the right of self-protection.

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Re: It's always a "coincidence" when they get caught

Post by Scooter »

This year CPAC dispensed with the symbols and went for actual Nazis:
Nazis at CPAC is a frog-in-boiling-water moment for the right

The Conservative Political Action Conference is the premier gathering of right-wing activists and politicians in America every year, and it serves as a bellwether for the direction of the conservative movement. This year Nazis showed up.

According to an NBC News report, “a group of Nazis who openly identified as national socialists mingled with mainstream conservative personalities, including some from Turning Point USA, and discussed ‘race science’ and antisemitic conspiracy theories.” (Hitler’s Nazi Party was officially called the “National Socialist German Workers’ Party.”) The reporter of the article has video of one of them giving a “heil Hitler”-style salute in the lobby of the hotel where the conference took place and of other members of the group reportedly used the N-word.

This is a critical frog-in-boiling-water moment for the right: The mainstream organs of American conservatism are apparently acclimating to Nazis in their pot. That this group was able to mingle with participants at a high-profile conference, wasn't kicked out of CPAC, and wasn't appropriately condemned is a sign of how contiguous mainstream conservatism has become with white supremacist politics today.

The clique of white supremacists who showed up at CPAC is embedded in extremist activist networks. One member of the group attended the deadly white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, in 2017, and another was a former member of the white supremacist “Rise Above Movement” and reportedly “touted associations” with Nick Fuentes, a white supremacist firebrand who has denied the Holocaust. Another white supremacist influencer at the conference was Jared Taylor, a eugenics advocate who hosts the annual American Renaissance Conference, which, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center, is a hub “where racist intellectuals rub shoulders with Klansmen, neo-Nazis and other white supremacists.”

CPAC’s statements in response to NBC’s reporting has not been comforting. CPAC Chairman Matt Schlapp said on X that “NBC’s claim that there was a Nazi presence at CPAC 2024 is false, misleading, and grossly manipulative” and added, “When we come across someone at CPAC peddling any kind of anti-semitism, we deal with them immediately.” But the statement does not respond to any of the specific details in NBC News’ report, it doesn’t acknowledge or attempt to rebut photo and video evidence of these individuals and their behavior, and these individuals were not kicked out, according to the reporter. (Notably the statement also says multiple times that CPAC is supportive of Israel, as if support for Israel is synonymous with opposing antisemitism or any other kind of bigotry. It’s not; in fact, the conflation of the two can rely on antisemitic tropes.) Another more recent CPAC statement also refuses to acknowledge what happened by calling it “fake news” and implies that Democrats are the real Nazis.

It’s not always possible for the hosts of major political gatherings to perfectly regulate who enters them — but there are always choices on how to react when, say, Nazis arrive. CPAC has kicked extremists off the premises of its conferences before. Last year, for example, Fuentes, the Holocaust denier, was removed from CPAC and condemned. But this year, Fuentes’ allies were able to stick around. It’s not clear exactly why this group of racist trolls was allowed to roam the premises, but it’s a sign of the times that this group was able to blend into the crowd. And instead of evicting them or vigorously disavowing affiliation with the white supremacists in attendance, the conference’s leader succumbed to glib denialism. That in effect provided the white supremacists with cover.

None of the explanations for why this was allowed should induce optimism about the direction of this country. Perhaps Schlapp’s inattentiveness to the group arose from a sense of resignation that the extremist elements are too great in number and too interwoven with the fabric of the GOP to be monitored and expelled. Or maybe it marks a tacit acceptance of these elements in light of Trump’s openly fascistic rhetoric about migrants “poisoning the blood” of America and championing revenge as the raison d’etre of his 2024 campaign.

What we do know is that up to and even through the beginning of the Trump era this kind of news would be seen as a major political liability for CPAC. Today it’s the kind of thing that hardly registers as a story at all.
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Re: It's always a "coincidence" when they get caught

Post by Burning Petard »

Once upon a time I purchased six white dress shirts, custom made, from a source in Hong Kong. They were supposed to have my name, in Chinese pictograms rather than a Roman alphabet monogram. I always wondered what it REALLY said, but I never asked anybody who should have known and told me the truth. A tattoo seems highly risky to me. But who knows. Perhaps they really like chicken soup.

As to why a holocaust denier would be banned, I suspect because CPAC regards it as a proud accomplishment


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Re: It's always a "coincidence" when they get caught

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