Graveyard of Empires

[Joe Guy]

Santayana warned about forgetting history but Churchill wanted you to learn from history.

[Gob]

It was the most contemptible speech by a U.S. president in modern times — a speech that shames America and leaves its global reputation in the dirt.

And given that, until last January, the White House was occupied for four years by a certain Donald J. Trump, there couldn’t be a more damning criticism of President Joe Biden.

Much of his address to the U.S. on Monday was Orwellian. In his classic novel 1984, set in a totalitarian dystopia, George Orwell created a Ministry of Peace which waged war, a Ministry of Truth which peddled lies, a Ministry of Love which tortured dissidents and a Ministry of Plenty which oversaw starvation.

Biden matched all of that and more with his own defiant doublethink, involving distortions, the rewriting of history, and nonsense and untruths that even Trump would struggle to rival.

His abject surrender to the Taliban was dressed up as political reality and common sense. His scuttle from Kabul, still ongoing, was depicted as geopolitical wisdom and a refocusing of U.S. priorities.

Any mistakes or problems were the fault of others, from Trump to the Afghan army.

But make no mistake: the person overwhelmingly responsible for the appalling scenes currently unfolding on our TV screens is the man sitting in the Oval Office.

More here.

[BoSoxGal]

I am sickened and saddened by the scenes unfolding on my TV screen out of Kabul.

However, it seems more and more like this was inevitable and the only fault one can place at the feet of this administration is 1) keeping Trump’s promised timeline for American departure, and 2) not planning for evacuation of all Americans and eligible allies in advance. And both of those faults were based entirely on an apparently widely shared misunderstanding about the status of the Afghan government and the Afghan Army, and that misunderstanding is entirely the fault of the nonpartisan leaders of our intelligence and military.

This ugly end is the predictable result of two decades of American egotism within the military industrial complex and maybe, just maybe, enough younger people will pay attention to this that they will rise up in a giant FUCK YOU the next time these forces try to drag us into another foreign land war.

My biggest concern is for how this will be used to hurt Biden’s party in the midterm elections, but honestly once the fickle media turns the cameras away, which is likely to be not too long from now, the truth will hold that ~70% of Americans wanted our troops out of there and the reality we are now seeing of how seriously messed up the place still is, how we made very little fundamental difference for all our time and treasure expended there, I suspect most Americans will only be that much more relieved that we have finally left.

My heart aches for the people of Afghanistan who yearn for a better life - especially for the women and girls who will be brutalized. But my heart has ached for years for the women and girls in the DRC and elsewhere who are the subject of the horrors of wars and never seem worthy of much mention in America, much less military intervention. The world is full of brutality, especially directed at women, and I have moved well on from any idealism I might have still held 20 years ago about our ability to change that in any fundamental way in any other country when there is still so much of it right here at home.

The more I think of it, the more I credit Biden for the courage to step up and take the heat for what was always going to be a very ugly end to our Afghan misadventures.

[ex-khobar Andy]

To quote Billy Joel (which I usually try to avoid) - We didn't start the fire!

Gob: please don't get your politics from the Daily Mail. It's not a good look.

Biden said - stealing a quote from HS Truman - (not, BTW, the first time he has hijacked someone else's words) - the buck stops here.

Deciding that we would get US troops out of Afghanistan was one of Trump's few decisions I agreed with. (I suppose there were times he looked out of the window and said "It's raining" and I probably would have again agreed with him.). Anyone who reads the papers would have known that eventually the Taliban would return. Only those with boots on the ground would have the information necessary to assess how long would it take in months or years. For that total misjudgment I blame the military and I think I would have said the same had this happened on Trump's watch. No-one likes to give bad news to the boss and I am speculating that when the one star general was asked by the three star guy "How's it going?" his response was probably "Don't worry, I've got this." First rule of middle management: keep your boss's boss off your boss's back.

I hope that behind the scenes Uncle Joe is in a WTF happened here? mood. How did a few thousand rag tag fighters with Toyota trucks overcome an army of 300,000 trained by us with all the latest shit?

[Sue U]

How did a few thousand rag tag fighters with Toyota trucks overcome an army of 300,000 trained by us with all the latest shit?

From today's news reports, it seems that a mix of bribes and threats of violence targeting individual leaders was a pretty effective combination.

[Gob]

Gob: please don't get your politics from the Daily Mail. It's not a good look.

I don't get anything from the Daily Mail. However, the article was written by Andrew Neil who is a respected, if right of centre, commentator.

[Crackpot]

It would help if he at least added a caveat that he wasn’t counting 45

[Big RR]

Gob: please don't get your politics from the Daily Mail. It's not a good look.

I don't get anything from the Daily Mail. However, the article was written by Andrew Neil who is a respected, if right of centre, commentator.

If he really cares that much, maybe he can lobby the UK to intervene and continue the "status quo". What do you bet he doesn't?

As fr the US, it was doomed to failure from day 1; eventually someone had to stop throwing good money after bad. I loved his air support argument for why the Afghan army crumbled. There was some bay in Cuba where I heard the same thing.

[Econoline]

[Gob]

[liberty]

To quote Billy Joel (which I usually try to avoid) - We didn't start the fire!

Gob: please don't get your politics from the Daily Mail. It's not a good look.

Biden said - stealing a quote from HS Truman - (not, BTW, the first time he has hijacked someone else's words) - the buck stops here.

Deciding that we would get US troops out of Afghanistan was one of Trump's few decisions I agreed with. (I suppose there were times he looked out of the window and said "It's raining" and I probably would have again agreed with him.). Anyone who reads the papers would have known that eventually the Taliban would return. Only those with boots on the ground would have the information necessary to assess how long would it take in months or years. For that total misjudgment I blame the military and I think I would have said the same had this happened on Trump's watch. No-one likes to give bad news to the boss and I am speculating that when the one star general was asked by the three star guy "How's it going?" his response was probably "Don't worry, I've got this." First rule of middle management: keep your boss's boss off your boss's back.

I hope that behind the scenes Uncle Joe is in a WTF happened here? mood. How did a few thousand rag tag fighters with Toyota trucks overcome an army of 300,000 trained by us with all the latest shit?

Liberals tell me again how a militia can’t defeat a professional army.

[liberty]

Alexander the Great conquered Afghanistan, but he did it in a way that made the Russian army of the 1980s look like pussies in comparison. He used levels of brutality that are inconceivable to the modern mind. He was a genius, and he was also the son of Zeus, so no mortal had a right to stand in his way. The Taliban won because God was on their side; don’t underestimate the power of faith.

We could have continued with four thousand in Afghanistan forever; it was a good training ground for our troops, but now we have to worry that they will lose their edge. There is no training that can prepare troops for combat like combat itself.

[Big RR]

Well that says it all; let's sacrifice the lives of our fellow countrymen on the altar of training--no other reason needed.

[Bicycle Bill]

Liberals tell me again how a militia can’t defeat a professional army.

But we were too concerned with not looking like the biggest bully on the block, so we handicapped ourselves with various "rules of engagement" and the reluctance to use certain weapons.  And when the army has to fight with one arm tied behind its back and the other side is free to use any means at hand, up to and including brutality of the civilian population who were even suspected of assisting the Americans (or, conversely, not fully and unconditionally supporting the Taliban)....   well, I would have thought we would have learned that lesson from the debacle that was Vietnam or even some of the atrocities perpetrated by the Nazis in WWII.

-"BB"-

[Long Run]

The completely legitimate criticism is the apparent lack of a plan on how to disengage. It is correct that with a few thousand US troops we could stay indefinitely as well as get everyone out before the final exit. And it is also completely legitimate to point out that Biden looks like an idiot (something he specializes in).

[BoSoxGal]

[liberty]

Well that says it all; let's sacrifice the lives of our fellow countrymen on the altar of training--no other reason needed.

Is not dead racists a good thing? Well, most of those killed are white southerners, aka racist. I know that blacks make up a disproportionate share of the military, but in combat arms, the people whose job is to engage the enemy, blacks are a small minority. So, see, the people that matter are not at serious risk. And if we ever have a real war, that combat experience would be invaluable.

[Joe Guy]

Is not dead racists a good thing? Well, most of those killed are white southerners, aka racist......

You're a white southerner, right?

Just checking.

[liberty]

Is not dead racists a good thing? Well, most of those killed are white southerners, aka racist......

You're a white southerner, right?

Just checking.

I wasn’t speaking from my perspective but that of the typical liberal. You remember channeling, don’t you?

[Gob]