WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Right? Left? Centre?
Political news and debate.
Put your views and articles up for debate and destruction!
Big RR
Posts: 14050
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:47 pm

Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by Big RR »

when I was a young man, I joined the struggle
So did I, but I'd bet on a very different side and I still consider myself a patriot. It would have been very different if we were attacked, but fighting to keep a brutal dictator in power was not patriotic IMHO. That a lot of people felt the same way and joined the struggle shows what we are willing to endure. And I have very little doubt that "we" would eventually win.

User avatar
BoSoxGal
Posts: 18298
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:36 pm
Location: The Heart of Red Sox Nation

Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by BoSoxGal »

The morning reports from Ukraine were heartening - Russians surrendering en masse to the Ukrainians and Ukraine taking back control of large areas of territory. Putin is starting to take a beating in the media at home. And a seventh or eighth Russian energy executive has had an unfortunate accident or suicide.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

liberty
Posts: 4406
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 5:31 pm
Location: Colonial Possession

Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by liberty »

Big RR wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 1:39 pm
when I was a young man, I joined the struggle
So did I, but I'd bet on a very different side and I still consider myself a patriot. It would have been very different if we were attacked, but fighting to keep a brutal dictator in power was not patriotic IMHO. That a lot of people felt the same way and joined the struggle shows what we are willing to endure. And I have very little doubt that "we" would eventually win.
If you want to talk about brutal tyrants, how about Stalin? He was one of the most brutal and murderous thugs in world history, and we supported him for four years because we considered Hitler a greater threat. We supported the South Vietnamese regime for the same reason; the communist was a more significant threat to freedom.

Face it; you supported the side of slavery and lost when Reagan was elected. The election of Reagan was the beginning of the end for Soviet communism, my condolences. I know Dreams Die Hard, copyright 1982 by David Harris, St. Martin's/Marek
I expected to be placed in an air force combat position such as security police, forward air control, pararescue or E.O.D. I would have liked dog handler. I had heard about the dog Nemo and was highly impressed. “SFB” is sad I didn’t end up in E.O.D.

User avatar
MajGenl.Meade
Posts: 20702
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Groot Brakrivier
Contact:

Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

The USA supported Russia, the UK, the Commonwealth, and other allies during the Second World War because all of them were at war against the common enemy. Supporting Russia in its offensive from the east saved ROW lives on the western front. Nothing to do with Stalin's brutality - Churchill and Roosevelt (and Truman) had no illusions about the bestial nature of Stalin's (very much not liberal and not even Communist) regime.

The USSR collapsed for reasons only remotely connected with the USA and Big Ron. (And him not so much). I'm sure Trotsky would point to internal contradictions in the Soviet system - thesis, antithesis and synthesis doing their thing.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

Big RR
Posts: 14050
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:47 pm

Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by Big RR »

We supported the South Vietnamese regime for the same reason; the communist was a more significant threat to freedom.
After all these years, you actually believe that? There is no answer to willful blindness.
Face it; you supported the side of slavery
What side was that? Allende instead of Pinochet? Castro instead of Batista? Guevara instead of Peron? I can't tell you how many times the US supported the side that was much worse for the people (i.e. the side of slavery) because it suited US business interests. Ot just because someone sought to help the poor as opposed to businesses. And they used the "communist" label to try and say the other side was wrong. And sheep like you bought it and cheered wildly, saying are supporting freedom, even though we were clearly not.

User avatar
BoSoxGal
Posts: 18298
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:36 pm
Location: The Heart of Red Sox Nation

Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by BoSoxGal »

All of humankind is enslaved in one fashion or another. Most of the USA are wage slaves to a twisted capitalist system that uses human lives as fodder for profit.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

liberty
Posts: 4406
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 5:31 pm
Location: Colonial Possession

Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by liberty »

Big RR wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 1:07 am
We supported the South Vietnamese regime for the same reason; the communist was a more significant threat to freedom.
After all these years, you actually believe that? There is no answer to willful blindness.
Face it; you supported the side of slavery
What side was that? Allende instead of Pinochet? Castro instead of Batista? Guevara instead of Peron? I can't tell you how many times the US supported the side that was much worse for the people (i.e. the side of slavery) because it suited US business interests. Ot just because someone sought to help the poor as opposed to businesses. And they used the "communist" label to try and say the other side was wrong. And sheep like you bought it and cheered wildly, saying are supporting freedom, even though we were clearly not.

To me, you are an enigma; you seem like a nice guy, intelligent and able to discuss complex subjects without foaming at the mouth like most liberals. So, I can't understand how you could say soviet communism was not a form of slavery. What can you call a system that determines your education, where you will work, and who your boss will be? And if you don't work hard enough to satisfy him, he can send you to a slave labor camp to be worked to death. Wouldn't you call that slavery? An enslaved person doesn't have to be the property of an individual to be a slave. Spartan slaves were the property of the Spartan state, not individual Spartans.
I expected to be placed in an air force combat position such as security police, forward air control, pararescue or E.O.D. I would have liked dog handler. I had heard about the dog Nemo and was highly impressed. “SFB” is sad I didn’t end up in E.O.D.

User avatar
MajGenl.Meade
Posts: 20702
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Groot Brakrivier
Contact:

Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

I can't understand how you could say soviet communism was not a form of slavery
The reason for your non-understanding is that Big RR neither made nor implied such a statement. You simply made it up
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

liberty
Posts: 4406
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 5:31 pm
Location: Colonial Possession

Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by liberty »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:38 am
I can't understand how you could say soviet communism was not a form of slavery
The reason for your non-understanding is that Big RR neither made nor implied such a statement. You simply made it up
Sometimes what is not said says all that needs to be known. For example, the Soviet empire was such an insult to freedom and humanity that to ignore it is the same as endorsing it.
I expected to be placed in an air force combat position such as security police, forward air control, pararescue or E.O.D. I would have liked dog handler. I had heard about the dog Nemo and was highly impressed. “SFB” is sad I didn’t end up in E.O.D.

User avatar
MajGenl.Meade
Posts: 20702
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Groot Brakrivier
Contact:

Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

liberty wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:48 pm
MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:38 am
I can't understand how you could say soviet communism was not a form of slavery
The reason for your non-understanding is that Big RR neither made nor implied such a statement. You simply made it up
Sometimes what is not said says all that needs to be known. For example, the Soviet empire was such an insult to freedom and humanity that to ignore it is the same as endorsing it.
The reason for your non-understanding is that Big RR neither made nor implied such a statement. You simply made it up
Image
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

User avatar
BoSoxGal
Posts: 18298
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:36 pm
Location: The Heart of Red Sox Nation

Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by BoSoxGal »

My heart goes out to the people of Russia who are being ‘mobilized’ to refill the fodder spots in the military which have come open by the tens of thousands as Russians have died in the ‘special military operation’ in Ukraine.

Imagine they knock on your door and grab you up and take you off to be fodder on the front line in eastern Ukraine.

They can grab up anyone they want. Terror.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

User avatar
MajGenl.Meade
Posts: 20702
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Groot Brakrivier
Contact:

Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

BoSoxGal wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:07 am
My heart goes out to the people of Russia who are being ‘mobilized’ to refill the fodder spots in the military which have come open by the tens of thousands as Russians have died in the ‘special military operation’ in Ukraine.

Imagine they knock on your door and grab you up and take you off to be fodder on the front line in eastern Ukraine.

They can grab up anyone they want. Terror.
Agreed but my understanding is that they are mobilizing reservists - not conscripting non-soldiers. Bit like the British TA or perhaps the National Guard here in the USA. But agreed.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

User avatar
BoSoxGal
Posts: 18298
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:36 pm
Location: The Heart of Red Sox Nation

Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by BoSoxGal »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:45 am
BoSoxGal wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:07 am
My heart goes out to the people of Russia who are being ‘mobilized’ to refill the fodder spots in the military which have come open by the tens of thousands as Russians have died in the ‘special military operation’ in Ukraine.

Imagine they knock on your door and grab you up and take you off to be fodder on the front line in eastern Ukraine.

They can grab up anyone they want. Terror.
Agreed but my understanding is that they are mobilizing reservists - not conscripting non-soldiers. Bit like the British TA or perhaps the National Guard here in the USA. But agreed.
I believe your understanding is incorrect. I just watched an interview with Masha Gessen discussing the extent of the mobilization (Putin says 300,000 but it is anticipated he will lie about that as he has about the numbers of dead and wounded) the random nature of who is subject to it (no it is not solely military reservists) and that the nature of the mobilization is intended to terrorize the population into continued submission to Putin’s regime. Thousands of Russians are desperately trying to flee the country and footage was shown of both widespread street protests (over 1000 arrested thus far) against the mobilization as well as people being accosted by Russian police attempting to leave the country.

It’s Russia, after all. Suffering and cruelty is the point.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

User avatar
Joe Guy
Posts: 13924
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:40 pm
Location: Redweird City, California

Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by Joe Guy »

After doing some google searches, I've read things like, "Asian countries (citizens of the Russian Federation) who have had Russian citizenship for less than 10 years will undergo compulsory military service in Russia for a year." There is no clarity or consistency in whether they are calling up reservists or just making up new rules as they go along. The CNN website says that Putin "is leaving it at the Defense Minister's discretion."

It sounds to me like Putin is getting desperate and nobody really knows what's going on with the Russian military and Putin. I heard an ex-CIA director (I didn't get his name) today on the radio asked how disfavored Russians in high places are eliminated from office and his response was "they are liquidated". He also said it was unlikely to happen to Putin but he mentioned that any eventual replacement could be even worse than Putin and would not likely change things for the better.

When it comes to Putin and Russia, it's a lot like reading about Trump. There are a lot of conflicts and you can't really believe anything you hear - the only thing we can know for sure is that one of them is a big fat liar and the other tells big fat lies.

ex-khobar Andy
Posts: 5419
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2015 4:16 am
Location: Louisville KY as of July 2018

Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

Trump's saving grace was his sheer ineptitude. A clever version of Trump, if minded to steal secret papers, could easily do it with no-one being the wiser. But he opened the door for a competent version; and it may be that Desantis is that person. I disagreed politically with Margaret Thatcher on almost everything going back long before her time as PM, but no-one could ever argue that (a) she was in it for herself and her rich friends and (b) she was incompetent. And Putin is nothing if not good at what he does.

If ordinary Russians are as opposed to the war as 1970s Americans were to the Vietnam War - and some estimates I have seen* are that Russia has already lost more troops than the US did in the decade of VN operations - and Putin is overthrown, we all owe an enormous debt to Ukraine and I will not resent any dollars paid to the rebuilding fund.

* OK I just looked it up. NYT estimates 25,000 dead Russian troops which is around half what the US lost in VN but in only 6 months of war.

User avatar
BoSoxGal
Posts: 18298
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:36 pm
Location: The Heart of Red Sox Nation

Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by BoSoxGal »

And now a far right regime is coming to power in Italy next - in the form of a woman PM no less.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ected.html

I’m loving all the autocratic anxiety of this timeline. Not.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

User avatar
Scooter
Posts: 16540
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:04 pm
Location: Toronto, ON

Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by Scooter »

It will be interesting to see. Fratelli d'Italia used their refusal to enter the national unity government to their advantage, largely to the detriment of their coalition partners. Now we'll see if the latest "party of no" actually has any capacity for governing. Or will they go the way of their predecessors, who found out rather quickly that winning the protest vote isn't a basis for retaining power.
"If you don't have a seat at the table, you're on the menu."

-- Author unknown

User avatar
Econoline
Posts: 9555
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:25 pm
Location: DeKalb, Illinois...out amidst the corn, soybeans, and Republicans

Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by Econoline »

"It is true that the threat of war can still be used, but only by a lunatic. Unfortunately, some people are lunatics."
— Bertrand Russell, Common Sense and Nuclear Warfare (1959)
People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
God @The Tweet of God

User avatar
BoSoxGal
Posts: 18298
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:36 pm
Location: The Heart of Red Sox Nation

Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by BoSoxGal »

Russians Are Terrified and Have Nowhere to Turn
Sept. 27, 2022
By Ilia Krasilshchik
Mr. Krasilshchik runs Helpdesk.media, a website that offers advice and support to people affected by the actions of the Russian government.


“Hello, I have a pregnant wife and a mortgage. My wife is panicking, and I have no money to go abroad. How can I escape the draft?”

This is a message we received at Helpdesk.media, a website I and other journalists set up in June to help people — with information, legal advice and psychological support — affected by the actions of the Russian government. The writer, after completing his mandatory military service seven years ago, was being drafted into the war in Ukraine. The Russian government was not interested in who will pay the mortgage or take care of his pregnant wife. It simply wanted more fodder for its war.

In the days since Vladimir Putin announced a “partial mobilization,” clearing the way for hundreds of thousands of men to be conscripted into his failing war effort, we’ve fielded tens of thousands of messages like these. Some were plaintive; others were defiant. Some were simply defeated. Along with Russians desperately trying to board flights, crossing borders or attacking recruitment centers, they testified to the same desire: to avoid the draft.

The truth is, they probably can’t. While presented as a limited measure affecting only those who previously served in the army, in practice, the government has free rein to conscript as many people as it wants. The initial number of 300,000, for example, already seems an enormous undercount. In the face of a monstrous regime hellbent on war and widespread international isolation, Russians are caught in a disaster. And judging from the response so far, they are terrified.

Such terror is at odds with the mass support the war supposedly enjoys. But the actual level of support is clearly significantly lower than that trumpeted by the Kremlin-controlled media. There are, tellingly, very few people eager to go to war — something made viscerally clear by the shooting of a recruitment officer in Siberia on Monday. Enthusiasm is thin on the ground: Yevgeny Prigozhin, the head of a private military company and a businessman close to Mr. Putin, has resorted to recruiting from prisons.

For regular citizens who want to escape that hellish fate, there simply aren’t many options. Some people have crossed into Belarus, but we are already getting information that the Belarusian authorities, complicit with Mr. Putin, are planning to seize men from Russia. If not Belarus, where? Just days before the start of the mobilization, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and Poland imposed an entry ban on almost all Russians. Last week, the Baltic States declared that this decision will not change, at least for now.

The thousand-mile border with Ukraine is, of course, closed. The Finnish authorities are still letting Russians in, but one needs a passport and a Schengen visa — something held by just a million Russians. Finland is planning to close the border, too. What remains open is Georgia, where the queue at the border crossing is more than 24 hours long and people are occasionally denied entry without any obvious reason. There are also destinations as far-flung as Norway, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan and Mongolia. Getting to any, by foot, bike or car, is a daunting undertaking with no assurance of success.

Airplane tickets to the few destinations still available to Russians, after the bulk of European airspace was closed off in February, are almost sold out. You want to fly to neighboring Kazakhstan? Here’s a ticket, with two layovers, for $20,000. Want to go to Armenia? No tickets left. Or to Georgia? Russia used to have daily direct flights to Tbilisi before the conflict in 2008, but now you cannot fly there, either.

The terrible truth is that Russians have become outcasts. Many countries have already imposed residency restrictions on them, and there are fewer and fewer possibilities of obtaining legal status, a work permit or even a bank account. No one is waiting to welcome fleeing Russians. In any case, it’s unclear how long the Russian authorities will allow people to leave the country. Some regional military authorities have already issued orders forbidding men who are subject to mobilization — that is, nearly all men — to leave their towns and cities.

People observing this horror from outside Russia are asking: Why don’t Russians protest? Well, many are. The first evening after the announcement was made, the Russian police detained over a thousand demonstrators in more than 30 cities across the country. Some protesters were severely beaten up. This is bravery beyond the imagining of those who have never experienced life in a dictatorship.

As for overthrowing Mr. Putin, likewise urged on Russians, I doubt you will find anyone who can tell you how to do it. The main opposition politician, Aleksei Navalny, is behind bars; protest is effectively outlawed; and even mild antiwar statements can land Russians in prison with a hefty sentence. I, for one, am facing criminal charges for writing on Instagram that the massacre in Bucha, Ukraine, was perpetrated by the Russian Army. For Russians, there is no visible route to a better future.

We have a saying in Russia, “to bomb Voronezh.” Voronezh is a Russian city not too far from the Ukrainian border, but the phrase does not refer to bombings by Ukraine. It refers to the Russian authorities’ perverse habit of retaliating against their own citizens in response to the actions of other governments. On Sept. 21, Mr. Putin added perhaps the most egregious example to the list. Thwarted by Ukraine’s resistance, he chose to punish Russian citizens for his failure.

Capital punishment may be forbidden in Russia. But for Mr. Putin’s decision, many people will pay with their lives.



Ilia Krasilshchik (@ikrasil) is the former publisher of Meduza, an independent news outlet, and the director of Helpdesk.media.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

MGMcAnick
Posts: 1342
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:01 pm
Location: 12 NM from ICT @ 010º

Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by MGMcAnick »

I think this is something we already know, but it's good to see it in print (if you subscribe AT $1 a week or have a monthly free NYT article available).
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... 1092815754
A friend of Doc's, one of only two B-29 bombers still flying.

Post Reply