WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

It seems he has announced the existence of a "cease fire" and wants Ukraine to reciprocate. Meantime, despite this alleged "cease fire" Russian missiles continue to hit Ukraine. It's just propaganda - Moscow points the finger 'See, they are not playing ball". And ignoring the continuation of attacks by Russian forces as they seem to be "ignoring" Putin (not likely - they're doing his bidding).

Talk mendaciously and keep whacking with a stick
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Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by liberty »

The Russians gradually push the Ukrainians back in the fight for eastern Ukraine. The Ukrainians are making the Russians pay a heavy price, but that only matters if the Ukrainians can wipe out the Russian army or the Russian army breaks. However, it could be the Ukrainians that end up getting broken. The Ukrainians are a very tough people, but no one is unbreakable; there are no supermen. The Spartans were eventually demoralized, and at one time, they were some of the best warriors in history. The thing about war is that it tends to kill your best people first. Eventually, only the second stringers are left. I fear the Ukrainian army suffering casualties as heavy as they are could break: it could happen overnight with almost no warning. And who could blame them? We would have collapsed long before this. To prevent this from happening, we need to provide them with the ability to hit the Russians before they get close. They need air cover, tanks, and long-range rockets to destroy Russian war-making capability before they enter Ukraine.

I think Biden is scared of Putin and is afraid to provide the Ukrainians with the resources they need to defeat the Russian army. He is fearful of Russian retaliation. I don't think the Russians will likely launch a nuclear strike, but they could slip saboteurs into the country, perhaps even with a small atomic weapon. A covert retaliation would provide Putin with plausible deniability. There's no way we can prevent it; our borders are virtually non-existent; if millions of illegal aliens can slip into the country, so can a few hundred or thousand Russians. But if we let Putin scare us, we've already lost and better get used to being slaves.
I expected to be placed in an air force combat position such as security police, forward air control, pararescue or E.O.D. I would have liked dog handler. I had heard about the dog Nemo and was highly impressed. “SFB” is sad I didn’t end up in E.O.D.

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Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by BoSoxGal »

Russia is going to break, it is only a matter of time. Russia is mobilizing tens of thousands of troops and they are being slaughtered like lambs. The Russian troops have zero morale, they are either decent kids dragged into something they don’t understand or they are mercenary garbage from private sector war criminal groups.

The Ukrainians are fighting to EXIST. For their elderly, their women and children who all stand behind them. For the Ukrainian children stolen away by Russia, that they may someday come home to a free Ukraine. There is nothing but morale - and the moral right - in the Ukrainian troops and the Ukrainian people.
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Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by Econoline »

Just like the U.S. in Vietnam, Russia is winning the battles and losing the war.
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Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

I think Biden is scared of Putin

Being scared of a lunatic with nuclear weapons seems like a pretty reasonable reaction. And while MAD was a plausible rationale for leaving the sabres in their scabbards while rattling them for the heyday of the Cold War, I'm not sure that Putin buys it.

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Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by liberty »

BoSoxGal wrote:
Fri Feb 17, 2023 4:31 am
Russia is going to break, it is only a matter of time. Russia is mobilizing tens of thousands of troops and they are being slaughtered like lambs. The Russian troops have zero morale, they are either decent kids dragged into something they don’t understand or they are mercenary garbage from private sector war criminal groups.

The Ukrainians are fighting to EXIST. For their elderly, their women and children who all stand behind them. For the Ukrainian children stolen away by Russia, that they may someday come home to a free Ukraine. There is nothing but morale - and the moral right - in the Ukrainian troops and the Ukrainian people.
I am not saying it will happen; I am just saying it could happen. The Ukrainian army could break, but I personally think it will more likely be destroyed if they don't get the war materials they need. At any rate, don't let it destroy you if the worst does happen.

A way that Biden could help that would be different and might be quite effective is to offer asylum to any Russian soldier that would surrender and defect to the U S. Buses would be kept near the frontlines to ferry them out of Ukraine and start them on the way to the US. Fear of Putin is the reason many Russian soldiers don't desert. If that fear could be neutralized, what would happen?
I expected to be placed in an air force combat position such as security police, forward air control, pararescue or E.O.D. I would have liked dog handler. I had heard about the dog Nemo and was highly impressed. “SFB” is sad I didn’t end up in E.O.D.

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Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by Sue U »

ex-khobar Andy wrote:
Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:26 pm
I think Biden is scared of Putin

Being scared of a lunatic with nuclear weapons seems like a pretty reasonable reaction. And while MAD was a plausible rationale for leaving the sabres in their scabbards while rattling them for the heyday of the Cold War, I'm not sure that Putin buys it.
Heard part of an interview last night with Michael Kirk, who made the Frontline documentary Putin and the Presidents. His frank assessment was that Biden is not in the least intimidated by Putin and of the five U.S. presidents who have faced him is the one who most clearly sees him for what he is. Interestingly, one of the hottest points of conflict between Biden and Obama during Obama's administration was the lack of a robust U.S. response to Russia's seizure of the Crimean Peninsula in 2014. Biden (and top military officers) argued forcefully for arming Ukraine and pushing Putin back, but Obama viewed it as a slippery slope that could lead to war directly with Russia with little in the way of American interests at stake.

I think in Biden's address from Poland tonight you'll probably hear some very blunt language about Putin and the need to rally support for Ukraine among NATO (and non-NATO) countries. It's likely to add fuel to Putin's lie that Russia is "under attack by the West," but a unified Europe is necessary to confront Putin's aggression.
GAH!

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Sue U
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Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by Sue U »

liberty wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 5:15 pm
A way that Biden could help that would be different and might be quite effective is to offer asylum to any Russian soldier that would surrender and defect to the U S. Buses would be kept near the frontlines to ferry them out of Ukraine and start them on the way to the US. Fear of Putin is the reason many Russian soldiers don't desert. If that fear could be neutralized, what would happen?
The Ukrainian government already offers amnesty and a payment of five million rubles each (about $48,000) to any Russian soldiers who surrender and turn over their weapons and equipment. But regardless of the offer, it is not easy for a Russian soldier to desert (you'll be shot trying) and cross Ukrainian lines (you'll be shot trying). It's not fear of Putin, it's fear of other soldiers on the battlefield.
GAH!

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Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by Scooter »

Many probably also fear for what will happen to their families back home if they desert.
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Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by BoSoxGal »

The stories out of Russia and Ukraine about the atrocities being committed by Russian soldiers on other Russian soldiers are awful - in particular the Wagner Group mercenaries have apparently taken some sick pleasure in executing conscripts from ethnic minorities as well as incarcerated people released to serve on the front in lieu of their sentence. Many such folks have attempted desertion and been tortured to death, if the stories are true. Also terrible stories of the suicides taking place in Russia by conscripts who would rather die than serve. And more than a million of Russia’s best and brightest have escaped the country and will likely never return. Putin has fucked Russia well and good.

I agree that Biden has handled this whole situation as well as could be hoped. We are so lucky that he is the commander in chief at this time, he has years of foreign policy expertise and has assembled a terrific WH team in this area as well as most others. Overall his administration has been very effective and by all rights he should be lauded but we are not living in that timeline. He’s tried very hard to drag us back to normalcy, but normalcy is too far away.
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Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by liberty »

All they are saying is to give peace a chance:

Thousands protest in Berlin against giving weapons to Ukraine | Germany | The Guardian

"We call on the German chancellor to stop the escalation of arms deliveries. Now!...Because every day lost costs up to 1,000 more lives - and brings us closer to a 3rd world war," the protest's organizers said on their website.
The "Uprising for Peace" was organised in part by Sahra Wagenknecht, a member of Germany's left-wing Die Linke party.
I expected to be placed in an air force combat position such as security police, forward air control, pararescue or E.O.D. I would have liked dog handler. I had heard about the dog Nemo and was highly impressed. “SFB” is sad I didn’t end up in E.O.D.

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Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

There is a similar movement in Britain (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... to-ukraine) supported by Jeremy Corbin who was head of the Labour Party unit a couple of years ago, and for the same pacifist reasons.

Although I think it is wrong, there is at least some rationality to this point of view. But I don't think the world can afford a Russian victory. Recent estimates are 200,000 Russian casualties (dead and injured) with 15,000 deaths (https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/02/ ... sis-a80334). Compare that one year number with 57,000 US deaths in Vietnam over the eight year most intense period 1965 through 1971 and about 16,000 in 1968 alone.

I think this will not end until someone close to Putin takes him out.

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Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by Econoline »

liberty wrote:
Sun Feb 26, 2023 5:10 pm
All they are saying is to give peace a chance:

Thousands protest in Berlin against giving weapons to Ukraine | Germany | The Guardian

"We call on the German chancellor to stop the escalation of arms deliveries. Now!...Because every day lost costs up to 1,000 more lives - and brings us closer to a 3rd world war," the protest's organizers said on their website.
The "Uprising for Peace" was organised in part by Sahra Wagenknecht, a member of Germany's left-wing Die Linke party.
"Peace for our time" can sometimes be an illusion.

Peace for our time.jpg
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Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

Neville Chamberlain gets a bad press. With hindsight he was wrong. But it was only 20 years since the end of the 'war to end all wars' - 9/11/2001 is further away from us now than Armistice Day in 1918 was from Chamberlain in 1938 - and it's very possible that by his actions that day, he bought enough time for Britain to rearm and thus eventually, with the help of the US and USSR, defeat Hitler's war machine.

Sometimes pragmatism is not very pretty.

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Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by Econoline »

ex-khobar Andy wrote:
Mon Feb 27, 2023 5:50 am
Sometimes pragmatism is not very pretty.
:shrug OK then, allow me to amend my statement:
Econoline wrote:
Sun Feb 26, 2023 11:48 pm
"Peace for our time" can sometimes be an illusion (but sometimes an illusion can be useful—at least in the short run—depending, of course, on just what it is used for.)
Yes, of course you're right, Andy; any comparison with 1938 is facile and simplistic...but my real point was that simply invoking the word "PEACE" is facile and simplistic and shouldn't override all other considerations.
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Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

Econoline wrote:
Mon Feb 27, 2023 7:30 am
. . . my real point was that simply invoking the word "PEACE" is facile and simplistic and shouldn't override all other considerations.
Agreed, but with a caveat - John and Yoko did not start the opposition to the Vietnam War which eventually led to its conclusion, but 'Give Peace a Chance' was a hell of a slogan and its very simplicity gave it legs.

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Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by Jarlaxle »

ex-khobar Andy wrote:
Mon Feb 27, 2023 5:50 am
Neville Chamberlain gets a bad press. With hindsight he was wrong. But it was only 20 years since the end of the 'war to end all wars' - 9/11/2001 is further away from us now than Armistice Day in 1918 was from Chamberlain in 1938 - and it's very possible that by his actions that day, he bought enough time for Britain to rearm and thus eventually, with the help of the US and USSR, defeat Hitler's war machine.

Sometimes pragmatism is not very pretty.
Not really. In 1938, Germany was even less ready than Britain.

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Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by Bicycle Bill »

Jarlaxle wrote:
Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:03 am
ex-khobar Andy wrote:
Mon Feb 27, 2023 5:50 am
Neville Chamberlain gets a bad press. With hindsight he was wrong. But it was only 20 years since the end of the 'war to end all wars' - 9/11/2001 is further away from us now than Armistice Day in 1918 was from Chamberlain in 1938 - and it's very possible that by his actions that day, he bought enough time for Britain to rearm and thus eventually, with the help of the US and USSR, defeat Hitler's war machine.

Sometimes pragmatism is not very pretty.
Not really. In 1938, Germany was even less ready than Britain.
Judging from the way the Wehrmacht rolled through much of Europe — including pushing the British back across the Channel — less than two years later, they were a lot more ready than you're willing to give them credit for.   Or they were sure able to fix that shortcoming in a big hurry.
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Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

Germany rearmed heavily during the 1930s contravening the Treaty of Versailles. Most of Europe, as a reaction to the horrors of the Great War, was in a pacifist / disarmament mood. Churchill and others saw what was happening and warned against it but maybe wishful thinking won the day. The rest, as they say, is history.

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Re: WWIII? Or just a little fuckery?

Post by Burning Petard »

And Germany did alot of beta testing with the Spanish Civil War.(1936-1939)

I have not seen a SNL update for a while, but i think Franco is still dead.

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