SCOTUS to women: You have no rights to autonomy and security of your person

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: SCOTUS to women: You have no rights to autonomy and security of your person

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Big RR wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:27 pm
Exactly Sue; Meade, I guess you believe that the world would be a better place if everyone would live according to the rules you think they should follow
Not at all. I tend to think that would be a bit disastrous. One reason I voted against Trump (aside from my faith) is that I did not want him to pick SCOTUS judges at all.

My simple point (and is it really that controversial?) is that we all vote for what we want to happen. Or at least, we all vote for people we think will tend in that direction. This has nothing to do with noble statements about being "tailored to serve an identifiable governmental interest necessary to the functioning of that society", wonderful though that is.

I vote in the hope that things I agree with will happen and things I don't agree with will not happen. So do you and so does everyone else. We doubtless differ at times and coincide at times on which things those are.

But you and everyone else takes part in an exercise that imposes restrictions of one kind or another on people who don't want those restrictions to be imposed. Stop denying the obvious. You and I (feel sure) both want to impose restrictions on guns - who can purchase, what license might be needed and so on. I know many people who vote utterly against that kind of imposition.

So I will continue to say that my motivation (based on faith) for voting for/against something is not more and no less worthy than whatever motivation you and Sue come up with. Which is what I was accused of doing and therefore I am evil and wrong.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Re: SCOTUS to women: You have no rights to autonomy and security of your person

Post by Sue U »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:31 pm
My simple point (and is it really that controversial?) is that we all vote for what we want to happen. Or at least, we all vote for people we think will tend in that direction. This has nothing to do with noble statements about being "tailored to serve an identifiable governmental interest necessary to the functioning of that society", wonderful though that is.

I vote in the hope that things I agree with will happen and things I don't agree with will not happen. So do you and so does everyone else. We doubtless differ at times and coincide at times on which things those are.

But you and everyone else takes part in an exercise that imposes restrictions of one kind or another on people who don't want those restrictions to be imposed. Stop denying the obvious. You and I (feel sure) both want to impose restrictions on guns - who can purchase, what license might be needed and so on. I know many people who vote utterly against that kind of imposition.

So I will continue to say that my motivation (based on faith) for voting for/against something is not more and no less worthy than whatever motivation you and Sue come up with. Which is what I was accused of doing and therefore I am evil and wrong.
You are mixing quite a number of different things under a broad rubric of electoral politics. Of course you vote for whoever you want based on whatever you want to happen (or not) for whatever reasons you have. No one tests your motivation or your faith at the voting booth. But when it comes to making actual laws, the people you voted into office to do that job are restrained (in this country) by the Constitution, and if they have any care for individual liberty, by the fundamental rule I mentioned above -- which largely animates the Constitution's specific protections of civil rights. That's exactly why we have concepts like "constitution" and "civil rights." No matter how much you and other like-minded people want something to happen (or not), and no matter how many of you vote for that result, if it violates those constitutional/civil rights it shall not be (well, that's the theory; YSCOTUSMV ).

When it comes to social legislation, the fact is that no one says "I want the government to make a law forbidding me from doing/making me do X thing." People only want laws that regulate others, who are doing something they don't like. I don't want laws regulating gun ownership because I need the government to stop *me* from committing gun crimes; I want those laws to stop others. Gun violence and related crime impairs the functioning of society, so the government has an identifiable interest in gun regulation, and a broad majority of Americans favor more restrictive gun laws; but the State of New York's requirements for a concealed carry permit apparently violate a constitutional "right to bear arms," so poof goes the gun law, no matter how hard you or I may vote to elect people specifically to write such laws. It matters not a whit whether I voted because I'm a commie gun-grabber or you voted because Jesus told you to. Nobody accused you of being evil or even wrong because of your motivation, but regardless of any particular motivation, your preferences (or mine) do not become law solely by dint of majoritarian say-so.
GAH!

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Re: SCOTUS to women: You have no rights to autonomy and security of your person

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Well I think we are muchly in agreement, Sue, at least in the theory. Earlier you had posted:
It is perfectly fine for you to follow your religious beliefs and to encourage others to adopt them; just don't legislate them for me
I took that to mean that while I can [thanks for the permission] (i) have a belief and (ii) encourage others to believe, I may not (on the basis of belief) actually vote (for a person who seeks to) enact something that comports with that belief. Specifically, my faith is an INVALID reason to vote for a candidate pledged to restrict abortion to cases of (a),(b) and (c). I believe Big RR all but supported that view! Slap on the wrist for me for not having the correct motivation.

I would NOT vote for a person vowing an outright ban, even though that perhaps sits more comfortably (as you pointed out) with the logic of my particular take on life and faith. This speaks more to my inconsistency than anything else. You might put it down to a sneaky feeling I could be in the wrong. Or that I'm using a fig leaf of some kind to assuage guilt over a desire to dominate women etc. etc. I don't think that's it but . . .
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Re: SCOTUS to women: You have no rights to autonomy and security of your person

Post by Big RR »

Meade--then you would not object to a predominantly moslem community passing a law requiring all residents to perform the salah (daily prayers) because majority rules?

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Re: SCOTUS to women: You have no rights to autonomy and security of your person

Post by Sue U »

Big RR wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:36 pm
Meade--then you would not object to a predominantly moslem community passing a law requiring all residents to perform the salah (daily prayers) because majority rules?
I think a better hypothetical would be a predominantly Muslim (or Jewish) community passing a law prohibiting the sale of pork.
GAH!

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Re: SCOTUS to women: You have no rights to autonomy and security of your person

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Sue U wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:33 pm
Big RR wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:36 pm
Meade--then you would not object to a predominantly moslem community passing a law requiring all residents to perform the salah (daily prayers) because majority rules?
I think a better hypothetical would be a predominantly Muslim (or Jewish) community passing a law prohibiting the sale of pork.
Probably not, if I didn't live there. :lol: (First they came for our bacon and I said nothing . . . then . . .)

If you mean "community" as in some tinpot little local council, I expect that it would soon be quashed at another political or judicial level. Or are you thinking of 'Community' in terms of the USA and the 18th Amendment and Volstead Act for example? Those had a 'good' (ahem) run from 1919 to 1933. Legislated in and then legislated out.

I've stated several times (here) rules must pass muster with the Constitution, as apparently Prohibition did. As I see it, the mob already has the upper hand, given that Congress and the Executive and the Judiciary are the mob.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Re: SCOTUS to women: You have no rights to autonomy and security of your person

Post by Scooter »

It's no longer theoretical.
As Ohio restricts abortions, 10-year-old girl travels to Indiana for procedure

On Monday three days after the Supreme Court issued its groundbreaking decision to overturn Roe v. Wade, Dr. Caitlin Bernard, an Indianapolis obstetrician-gynecologist, took a call from a colleague, a child abuse doctor in Ohio.

Hours after the Supreme Court action, the Buckeye state had outlawed any abortion after six weeks. Now this doctor had a 10-year-old patient in the office who was six weeks and three days pregnant.

Could Bernard help?

Indiana lawmakers are poised to further restrict or ban abortion in mere weeks. The Indiana General Assembly will convene in a special session July 25 when it will discuss restrictions to abortion policy along with inflation relief.

But for now, the procedure still is legal in Indiana. And so the girl soon was on her way to Indiana to Bernard's care.

While Indiana law did not change last week when the Supreme Court issued its groundbreaking Dobbs decision, abortion providers here have felt an effect, experiencing a dramatic increase in the number of patients coming to their clinics from neighboring states with more restrictive policies.

Since Friday, the abortion clinics where Dr. Katie McHugh, an independent obstetrician-gynecologists works have seen “an insane amount of requests” from pregnant people in Kentucky and Ohio, where it is far more difficult to get an abortion.

A ban on abortions after six weeks took effect on last week in Ohio. Last Friday the two abortion providers in Kentucky shut their doors after that state’s trigger law banning abortions went into effect.

Indiana soon could have similar restrictions.

That pains doctors like Bernard.

“It’s hard to imagine that in just a few short weeks we will have no ability to provide that care,” Bernard said.

For now, Indiana abortion providers have been fielding more calls from neighboring states. Typically about five to eight patients a day might hail from out of state, said McHugh, who works at multiple clinics in central and southern Indiana. Now, the clinics are seeing about 20 such patients a day.

Kentucky patients have been coming to Indiana in higher numbers since earlier this spring when more restrictive laws took effect there, McHugh said.

A similar dynamic is at play at Women’s Med, a medical center that performs abortions in Indianapolis that has a sister center in Dayton, Ohio. In the past week, they have doubled the number of patients they treat for a complete procedure, accepting many referrals from their Ohio counterpart.

More than 100 patients in Dayton had to be scheduled at the Indianapolis facility, a representative for Women’s Med, wrote in an email to IndyStar.

Women and pregnant people are “crying, distraught, desperate, thankful and appreciative,” the representative wrote.

The two centers are working together to route patients to Indianapolis for a termination after a pre-op appointment in Dayton. In recent months, they have also had people from southern states, like Texas, come north for a procedure.

Many patients, particularly from Ohio and Kentucky, are seeking care through Women’s Med while also making multiple appointments in other states so if one state closes down, they will still have some options, the representative wrote.

The center is advising pregnant people with a positive pregnancy test to book an appointment even though prior to the Supreme Court ruling they asked people to wait until their six-week mark to do so.

For years people have traversed state lines for abortions, particularly if a clinic across the border is closer to their home than the nearest in-state facility.

In 2021, 465, or about 5.5% of the more than 8,400 abortions performed, were done on out-of-state residents, according to the Indiana Department of Health's most recent terminated pregnancy report. More than half, 264, lived in Kentucky and 40 in Ohio.

Midwestern residents can also travel to Illinois, where abortion is likely to remain legal even in the wake of the recent Supreme Court ruling but for many Indiana is closer and until the lawmakers pass any measure to the contrary, abortion will be legal here.

Still, it remains murky what the future holds.

Thursday a lower court ruled that abortions could resume, at least for now, in Kentucky. On Wednesday abortion clinics in Ohio filed suit, saying that state’s new ban was unconstitutional.

In Indiana lawmakers have declined to provide specifics of what measures any abortion legislation considered here might contain.

For now, then, abortion providers are doing their best to accommodate all Hoosier patients as well those from neighboring states.

“We are doing the best we can to increase availability and access as long as we can, knowing that this will be a temporary time frame that we can offer that assistance,” McHugh said.
Let's be clear, a six week limit is for all intents and purposes a ban. Unless they are studiously monitoring their cycles for signs of pregnancy, most women will not realize they are pregnant in time to see a doctor and schedule a procedure before that time.
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Re: SCOTUS to women: You have no rights to autonomy and security of your person

Post by Bicycle Bill »

Too bad the GOP and the MAGAts didn't just ignore the abortion issue.....

Just the same way they've been able to ignore the issue of school shootings and gun violence in general.

-"BB"-
Yes, I suppose I could agree with you ... but then we'd both be wrong, wouldn't we?

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Re: SCOTUS to women: You have no rights to autonomy and security of your person

Post by Joe Guy »

In Utah and a couple other states they could end up executing a doctor for performing an abortion. Of course I'm sure they would be fine with using their approved method of execution - the firing squad.

F Squad.jpg
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Re: SCOTUS to women: You have no rights to autonomy and security of your person

Post by Econoline »

pop quiz.jpg
People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
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Re: SCOTUS to women: You have no rights to autonomy and security of your person

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

But it's an ill-wind . . .
Here Are the States Seeing High Vasectomy Consultations Since Abortion Ban
By Fatma Khaled On 6/30/22 at 7:31 PM EDT
https://www.newsweek.com/here-are-state ... an-1720847

And the Wapo claims men are "rushing" to get vasectomies . . . (I can't read the article, not being a subscriber)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2 ... h-control/
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Re: SCOTUS to women: You have no rights to autonomy and security of your person

Post by Bicycle Bill »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 2:26 pm
But it's an ill-wind . . .
Here Are the States Seeing High Vasectomy Consultations Since Abortion Ban
By Fatma Khaled On 6/30/22 at 7:31 PM EDT
https://www.newsweek.com/here-are-state ... an-1720847

And the Wapo claims men are "rushing" to get vasectomies . . . (I can't read the article, not being a subscriber)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2 ... h-control/
Which proves to me that humanity today will go to almost any lengths, even self-sterilization, just so they can continue to fuck around to their heart's content.

Maybe someone should propose legislation whereby every male, upon reaching puberty, is obligated to report, in much the same manner as young man are obligated to register with Selective Services once they turn eighteen, to rhe ''Planned Pregnancy Commission' to bank a supply of semen (in case they DO decide to get married and have children), after which they then undergo a mandatory vasectomy. This way they can still bang whoever they want -- friend, family member, or total stranger, it won't matter -- whenever they want without worrying about putting a bun in someone's oven, since they'll be shooting blanks.

-"BB"-
Yes, I suppose I could agree with you ... but then we'd both be wrong, wouldn't we?

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Re: SCOTUS to women: You have no rights to autonomy and security of your person

Post by Jarlaxle »

You need your medication adjusted.

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Re: SCOTUS to women: You have no rights to autonomy and security of your person

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Hear, hear.

(Agreeing with Jarl)
Last edited by MajGenl.Meade on Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Re: SCOTUS to women: You have no rights to autonomy and security of your person

Post by BoSoxGal »

A segment of the anti choice movement that wants to punish women for having sex with all the other people but not them is the INCELs; they are a driving force and they hate sex with an abiding passion having never once had the pleasure.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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Re: SCOTUS to women: You have no rights to autonomy and security of your person

Post by Econoline »

Supreme tribunal.jpg
People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
God @The Tweet of God

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Re: SCOTUS to women: You have no rights to autonomy and security of your person

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

BoSoxGal wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:51 pm
A segment of the anti choice movement that wants to punish women for having sex with all the other people but not them is the INCELs; they are a driving force and they hate sex with an abiding passion having never once had the pleasure.
Yep, Urban Dictionary she say:
incel

short for "involuntary celibate". often built like a discord mod, probably uses reddit, gets no bitches, says the hard r while being whiter than Wonder Bread, smells like Axe body spray and/or B.O., plays COD, and makes overused "i identify as an attack helicopter" jokes. has never felt the touch of another woman except that of his mother when she handed him snackies as a child.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Re: SCOTUS to women: You have no rights to autonomy and security of your person

Post by BoSoxGal »

Econoline wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:17 pm
Supreme tribunal.jpg
Nice, but I think an accurate burka would have a screen covering Mrs. Coney Barrett’s eyes as none but her husband should view them unshielded.

Like this:
E4114FE7-85DA-442B-BC25-13D175DA1A46.jpeg
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

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Re: SCOTUS to women: You have no rights to autonomy and security of your person

Post by Bicycle Bill »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:44 pm
BoSoxGal wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:51 pm
A segment of the anti choice movement that wants to punish women for having sex with all the other people but not them is the INCELs; they are a driving force and they hate sex with an abiding passion having never once had the pleasure.
Yep, Urban Dictionary she say:
incel

short for "involuntary celibate". often built like a discord mod, probably uses reddit, gets no bitches, says the hard r while being whiter than Wonder Bread, smells like Axe body spray and/or B.O., plays COD, and makes overused "i identify as an attack helicopter" jokes. has never felt the touch of another woman except that of his mother when she handed him snackies as a child.
I am NOT an INCEL; if anything, I am a 'VOLCEL' ... a voluntary celibate, since I have made -- and continue to make -- a conscious choice to not run around trying to ram my tallywhacker into every twat that crosses my path. I have spent enjoyable time in the company of members of the female gender; it's just that -- with the possible exception of Katie Barefoot -- I didn't have deep enough feelings for them to move on to the level of physical intimacy... or 'making love', if you want to get schmaltzy about it.

Seriously, my behaving in this manner is really no different than someone who chooses to not eat meat, not smoke tobacco, or drink alcohol.

-"BB"-
Yes, I suppose I could agree with you ... but then we'd both be wrong, wouldn't we?

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Re: SCOTUS to women: You have no rights to autonomy and security of your person

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

I don't think anyone has called you an incel, BB: you have a choice about how you behave and I don't think anyone here begrudges you that choice. Other people make other choices for themselves . . .

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