In other news from Hell

Right? Left? Centre?
Political news and debate.
Put your views and articles up for debate and destruction!
User avatar
BoSoxGal
Posts: 18299
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:36 pm
Location: The Heart of Red Sox Nation

Re: In other news from Hell

Post by BoSoxGal »

I’m sad to report that purchasing little pink rifles for little girls is a very normative thing for a substantial swath of the American population.

I’m somewhat chagrined to admit that I dated a lawyer in Montana whose 3 year old daughter already owned her own little pink rifle and was enthusiastic about going out to slaughter prairie dogs for fun. I dated him because I wanted to stepmother his kids, but ultimately realized pretty quickly that our values didn’t align and I didn’t want to participate in the way he parented.

Here’s an old DM piece about little girls with pink guns. Noteworthy in 2014 it asserts Crickett rifles sold 60,000 units intended for 4-10 year old children. No doubt with the recent skyrocketing of gun sales they are selling a lot more units per year. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ssion.html
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

User avatar
TPFKA@W
Posts: 4833
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:50 am

Re: In other news from Hell

Post by TPFKA@W »

Mine wasn’t pink. I got a .22 single shot rifle when I was 10.

I owned a .38 and had a .870 pump as an adult.

I currently don’t have any guns.

I have many friends and family who are heavily armed yet strangely enough none of us has turned into mass shooters.

User avatar
Bicycle Bill
Posts: 9015
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:10 pm
Location: Surrounded by Trumptards in Rockland, WI – a small rural village in La Crosse County

Re: In other news from Hell

Post by Bicycle Bill »

TPFKA@W wrote:
Sun Apr 16, 2023 4:02 pm
I have many friends and family who are heavily armed yet strangely enough none of us has turned into mass shooters.
But all it takes is for one of those friends or family members to have a couple drinks too many, or a severe case of depression, or just plain go off the deep end, and you may suddenly and rapidly find yourself with a lot fewer friends or family.  Is the right for one person to become 'heavily armed' worth that kind of risk to the life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness of countless others?
Image
-"BB"-
Yes, I suppose I could agree with you ... but then we'd both be wrong, wouldn't we?

ex-khobar Andy
Posts: 5419
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2015 4:16 am
Location: Louisville KY as of July 2018

Re: In other news from Hell

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

We had another mass shooting in Louisville last night - 2 dead, 4 wounded - not sure if that fits the current definition of 'mass' - just six days after the bank shooting which killed five plus the shooter. And of course 4 dead in an Alabama birthday party. I think (don't know) that the perpetrators of both incidents are still at large.

We all have cars; and in the US about 40,000 deaths per year. And annually there are a similar number of gun deaths of which more than half are suicides. As are, undoubtedly, some traffic deaths. We have systems in place to ensure that drivers are properly trained, that the vehicles function reasonably well, and that they carry insurance for those times that training or the vehicle functioning is inadequate.

If we look at international fatality rates per 100,000 population, we see the US coming in at 11.1 . Three other countries where I have been through driver training and had a local license are Britain at 2.81; Libya 22.9; and Saudi Arabia 36.1 . Those numbers tally with my experience. The UK driving and written tests are much tougher than the US ones (in my case, New York State) and the annual Ministry of Transport (MOT) test of the vehicle is pretty exacting. Once the car reaches its third birthday you have to have the MOT certificate displayed. I've been through car checks in NY and KY and MO and basically if the lights, horn and wipers function you're OK. Libya (and I'm going back 40 years now) had quite an interesting test for a license - you had to back the vehicle around a corner and stay between the cones, drive a mile or two with the examiner, and parallel park. Saudi Arabia you had to drive once around a 400 meter track and provided that both you and the vehicle made it unscathed to the other end, (most did the day of my test but not all) you were good to go.

The point I am making is that the road traffic deaths tally pretty much with what I would expect from the training and vehicle safety checks. And other factor such as policing etc. which are broadly similar in Britain and the US. (Signage is way better in Europe than US. It's not just speed - Germany, with its no limit autobahns, is at 2.98 .)

I'd like to see all automatic and semi-automatic weapons banned. But frankly that won't make much of a dent in US statistics, because although obviously the big shootings (Pulse nightclub, Columbine etc) used AR-15 type weapons, the great majority of gun crime uses pistols. But I'd like to see that, just as it's a crime to operate a vehicle without the requisite training, licensing and insurance, so too would it be for weapon ownership. I'd take it.

User avatar
Sue U
Posts: 8545
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:59 pm
Location: Eastern Megalopolis, North America (Midtown)

Re: In other news from Hell

Post by Sue U »

ex-khobar Andy wrote:
Mon Apr 17, 2023 12:47 am
I'd like to see all automatic and semi-automatic weapons banned. But frankly that won't make much of a dent in US statistics, because although obviously the big shootings (Pulse nightclub, Columbine etc) used AR-15 type weapons, the great majority of gun crime uses pistols. But I'd like to see that, just as it's a crime to operate a vehicle without the requisite training, licensing and insurance, so too would it be for weapon ownership. I'd take it.
I have said repeatedly that one highly rational and widely acceptable approach to the gun problem (and yes it is broadly a *gun* problem, not just an "assault weapon problem or a high-capacity magazine problem or a mental health problem, or some other red-herring distraction) is treating them very much like vehicles: safety training and licensing of owners with periodic renewal, registration of firearms with periodic renewal, and mandatory liability insurance. I have no doubt these measures alone would drastically reduce the number of guns in circulation and the number of deaths they cause.
GAH!

Jarlaxle
Posts: 5370
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:21 am
Location: New England

Re: In other news from Hell

Post by Jarlaxle »

Translation: you want a back-door ban, limiting guns to the "right" people, just like Big Tim Sullivan.

User avatar
Sue U
Posts: 8545
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:59 pm
Location: Eastern Megalopolis, North America (Midtown)

Re: In other news from Hell

Post by Sue U »

Jarlaxle wrote:
Mon Apr 17, 2023 4:01 pm
Translation: you want a back-door ban, limiting guns to the "right" people, just like Big Tim Sullivan.
No, what *I* want is repeal of the Second Amendment and an outright general ban on individual gun ownership.

Short of that, the only constitutionally-permissible "sensible gun legislation" is treating guns like operating any other dangerous machinery to ensure that gun owners are actually responsible for the safety and social costs of their toys.

What *you* want is irresponsibility, anarchy and barbarism.
GAH!

User avatar
Econoline
Posts: 9555
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:25 pm
Location: DeKalb, Illinois...out amidst the corn, soybeans, and Republicans

Re: In other news from Hell

Post by Econoline »

Jarlaxle wrote:
Mon Apr 17, 2023 4:01 pm
Translation: you want a back-door ban, limiting guns to the "right" people, just like Big Tim Sullivan.
Jarlaxle wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:11 pm
Econoline wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:32 am
Is there *ANYONE* who should *EVER* be considered *NOT* part of a "well regulated militia"????? :loon
Criminals. Mentally ill.
So you DO agree that some people (the "right" people) SHOULD be allowed to own guns, and that some (the "wrong" people?) should NOT. Your only disagreement is where and how to draw the line.

Sue — correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall anyone ever insisting that driver's licenses, vehicle registration, mandatory liability insurance, vehicle safety regulations, traffic laws, et al. are a "back-door ban" on cars and trucks. I'd imagine that even Jarlaxle would agree that there should be at least *SOME* restrictions on who can drive and what, where, and how they can drive. The fact that vehicles and vehicle operators are subject to extensive regulation (much more extensive than anything proposed for firearms) without that leading to a ban is pretty good evidence that it can be done—that sensible safety regulations will *NOT* inevitably result in a ban.
People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
God @The Tweet of God

Jarlaxle
Posts: 5370
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:21 am
Location: New England

Re: In other news from Hell

Post by Jarlaxle »

Sue U wrote:
Mon Apr 17, 2023 4:28 pm
Jarlaxle wrote:
Mon Apr 17, 2023 4:01 pm
Translation: you want a back-door ban, limiting guns to the "right" people, just like Big Tim Sullivan.
No, what *I* want is repeal of the Second Amendment and an outright general ban on individual gun ownership.
So, you agree with me.

What *you* want is irresponsibility, anarchy and barbarism.
That's a lie.

User avatar
Sue U
Posts: 8545
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:59 pm
Location: Eastern Megalopolis, North America (Midtown)

Re: In other news from Hell

Post by Sue U »

Jarlaxle wrote:
Mon Apr 17, 2023 6:47 pm
So, you agree with me.
Stop being such a tool; it's not clever, it's not funny, and if it wasn't meant to be clever or funny then it's just lazy dishonesty. (I know it's not stupidity.)
Jarlaxle wrote:
Mon Apr 17, 2023 6:47 pm
What *you* want is irresponsibility, anarchy and barbarism.
That's a lie.
If you don't want mandatory training, licensing, registration and liability insurance as the literal least that could be done (beyond "thoughts and prayers") then you want irresponsibility, anarchy and barbarism. Or maybe it's only you who can see that all those freely wielded guns have clearly made America the safest country in the world.
GAH!

User avatar
Bicycle Bill
Posts: 9015
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:10 pm
Location: Surrounded by Trumptards in Rockland, WI – a small rural village in La Crosse County

Re: In other news from Hell

Post by Bicycle Bill »

Sue U wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2023 2:29 am
If you don't want mandatory training, licensing, registration and liability insurance as the literal least that could be done (beyond "thoughts and prayers") then you want irresponsibility, anarchy and barbarism. Or maybe it's only you who can see that all those freely wielded guns have clearly made America the safest country in the world.
I'm guessing Jarl's concept of 'safest country in the world' has to do with the (also right-wing whack-a-doodle belief) that the country is going to be overrun by ???? — liberals, Commies, immigrants, Jews, the 'New World Order', or some other phantom boogie-man — and because we have all these wanna-be Rambos running around with these wonderful weapons of mass murder we will be able to fight them "on the beaches, on the landing grounds, in the fields and in the streets, in the hills" and successfully beat them back.  So to his way of thinking, we are "safe" from this possibility.  All these other deaths are, to him, merely collateral damage, and they should be proud, willing, and glad to give their lives for such a noble cause.
Image
-"BB"-
Yes, I suppose I could agree with you ... but then we'd both be wrong, wouldn't we?

Jarlaxle
Posts: 5370
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:21 am
Location: New England

Re: In other news from Hell

Post by Jarlaxle »

Sue U wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2023 2:29 am
Jarlaxle wrote:
Mon Apr 17, 2023 6:47 pm
So, you agree with me.
Stop being such a tool; it's not clever, it's not funny, and if it wasn't meant to be clever or funny then it's just lazy dishonesty. (I know it's not stupidity.)
Whether or not you'll admit it, I'm correct.
Jarlaxle wrote:
Mon Apr 17, 2023 6:47 pm
What *you* want is irresponsibility, anarchy and barbarism.
That's a lie.
If you don't want mandatory training, licensing, registration and liability insurance as the literal least that could be done (beyond "thoughts and prayers") then you want irresponsibility, anarchy and barbarism. Or maybe it's only you who can see that all those freely wielded guns have clearly made America the safest country in the world.
I do want training. I posted it two years ago. Copied here...
Start teaching about firearms in middle school. Nationwide shall-issue concealed carry. (CCW holders are-far and away, it's not close-the most law-abiding people in the country.) By HS graduation, every American should be able to safely load, unload, and shoot a rifle and pistol.

Jarlaxle
Posts: 5370
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:21 am
Location: New England

Re: In other news from Hell

Post by Jarlaxle »

Bicycle Bill wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2023 3:05 am
Sue U wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2023 2:29 am
If you don't want mandatory training, licensing, registration and liability insurance as the literal least that could be done (beyond "thoughts and prayers") then you want irresponsibility, anarchy and barbarism. Or maybe it's only you who can see that all those freely wielded guns have clearly made America the safest country in the world.
I'm guessing Jarl's concept of 'safest country in the world' has to do with the (also right-wing whack-a-doodle belief) that the country is going to be overrun by ???? — liberals, Commies, immigrants, Jews, the 'New World Order', or some other phantom boogie-man — and because we have all these wanna-be Rambos running around with these wonderful weapons of mass murder we will be able to fight them "on the beaches, on the landing grounds, in the fields and in the streets, in the hills" and successfully beat them back.  So to his way of thinking, we are "safe" from this possibility.  All these other deaths are, to him, merely collateral damage, and they should be proud, willing, and glad to give their lives for such a noble cause.
Image
-"BB"-
If you have these hallucinations regularly, see a good lobotomist.

User avatar
BoSoxGal
Posts: 18299
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:36 pm
Location: The Heart of Red Sox Nation

Re: In other news from Hell

Post by BoSoxGal »

1EE4CB65-5DA4-47B9-A8F7-D4571DFA0B27.jpeg
Who will give these training courses? NRA members? Like the grandparent of this six year old kid who didn’t teach him to never, ever under any circumstances point a firearm at a human being, even if you’ve been told it’s safe?
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

Jarlaxle
Posts: 5370
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:21 am
Location: New England

Re: In other news from Hell

Post by Jarlaxle »

BoSoxGal wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:14 am
1EE4CB65-5DA4-47B9-A8F7-D4571DFA0B27.jpeg

Who will give these training courses? NRA members? Like the grandparent of this six year old kid who didn’t teach him to never, ever under any circumstances point a firearm at a human being, even if you’ve been told it’s safe?
Most instructors I know would happily volunteer. I would, my wife would, my mother would, my uncle would.

User avatar
BoSoxGal
Posts: 18299
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:36 pm
Location: The Heart of Red Sox Nation

Re: In other news from Hell

Post by BoSoxGal »

Texas Governor Greg Abbott described the shooting as an 'unspeakable tragedy.'

Witnesses have recalled the horrific moments they realized they were in the midst of a mass shooting - with one man, Steven Spainhouer, saying he rushed to desperately save a child who had been shot.

His own son was working at the H&M store when shots were fired.

Spainhouer told CBS News: 'I never imagined in 100 years I would be thrust into the position of being the first first responder on the site to take care of people.

'The first girl I walked up to was crouched down covering her head in the bushes, so I felt for a pulse, pulled her head to the side and she had no face.'

He said she was already beyond saving.

Still set on saving the mess of victims, Spainhouer recalled how he then found another child, who survived the barrage of bullets by being covered by his protective mother, who he said was among eight to die by the gunman.

Spainhouer added: 'When I rolled the mother over, he came out.

'I asked him if he was OK and he said, 'My mom is hurt, my mom is hurt.'

'Rather than traumatize him any more, I pulled him around the corner sat him down and he was covered from head to toe. [It was] like somebody poured blood on him.'
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... unman.html

Governor Abbott calls it an unspeakable tragedy, but has continued to relax the gun laws in his state while they have suffered some of the worst mass shootings in recent years. After Uvalde the legislature did nothing - except to enact a law requiring DNA identification kits be issued to incoming elementary students so their bodies can be easily identified when ripped to shreds by high velocity gunfire.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

Burning Petard
Posts: 4050
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 5:35 pm
Location: Near Bear, Delaware

Re: In other news from Hell

Post by Burning Petard »

Mark Twain had something to say about statistics, but some of those show it is safer in New York City, with all their mix of race and language and economics and politics, than in Texas.

snailgate

Burning Petard
Posts: 4050
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 5:35 pm
Location: Near Bear, Delaware

I think it is good news.

Post by Burning Petard »

Does seem like hell, when I look at the over-all political situation in the USofA. But then once in a while there is some good news.

The state of Delaware had school boards elections yesterday. Every school district had an individual election for school board yesterday. It is some kind of rolling replacement, like the US Senate. Every two years there are two seats up for election. It is supposed to be 'non-partisan' with no party indicated. Mostly the incumbent is re-elected or the replacements are not challenged. If one person runs for the seat, then they get it and no election for that district happens. The voting is by the same machines used in general elections, but it is set up in schools. It is not easy to find out just where one is supposed to vote. Turn out is usually very small. This time for my school district, that includes part of Wilmington DE, which is strongly Democrat, and Newark, which is home of the state university and higher than average incomes. This time it was highly competitive, with the new crop of specially trained GOP/Trumper people who have been carefully trained on the issues and local political rules and traditions. They had organized community meetings and well-rehearsed sound bites about indoctrination, woke, religious freedom, the evil idea that America might have institutionalized racism. and we must return to strict binary gender rules. They lost.

That is the good news. The traditional liberal view of education was the state-wide victor. In my School district, the fear-mongers lost badly, got less than a third of the vote. Generally, in American elections, to win by 10% is a landslide. This was, almost a 65/35 split. The two winners in my district were a) a local businessman no children who wants libraries that have everything and schools that produce people who can read and think for themselves. b) was a second generation Chinese/American single dad with two elementary age kids. He supported the LGBT+ and the much-attacked core curriculum.

Generally Delaware has been an evenly divided GOP/Dem state wide. But like many places, the lower economic bracket and the less educated have been supporting the hard core right in primaries, and then the GOP losses their shirt in the general election.

snailgate.

Burning Petard
Posts: 4050
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 5:35 pm
Location: Near Bear, Delaware

Re: In other news from Hell

Post by Burning Petard »

:beat

User avatar
BoSoxGal
Posts: 18299
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:36 pm
Location: The Heart of Red Sox Nation

Re: In other news from Hell

Post by BoSoxGal »

Here’s the damning DOJ report on the colossal failures of law enforcement at Uvalde: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... lde-report

The DA there has FINALLY convened a special grand jury to examine the evidence and determine what, if any, charges to bring. I am not hopeful, as the evidence from day one has been that this is a deeply corrupt and inept city and county government and the state is no prize either. I just feel sorry for people who were unfortunate enough to be born in Texas or to have some other reason to be there.

Seeing some of the parents in a news conference following Garland’s news conference made me feel so ill, thinking how traumatizing it must be for them to be in that small community seeing those selfish and incompetent law enforcement officers and other city officials walking around free of any stain and people actually telling them to ‘let it go’ and ‘get over it,’ to stop causing trouble.

The only good news related to this thread is that POS Wayne LaPierre is out of the NRA, but his monstrous work will live on and I bet he is never held accountable for his misdeeds, either.

What a fucking world.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

Post Reply