Plan B Forum

Maybe he had murder in mind, but did he really try if he just got out of his taxi near Kavanaugh's house with weapons? Now if he'd sat down to share a beer with him, and pulled a gun, that seems to me it would be an attempt. So did he, or did he not make an attempt? Just curious.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/08/us/b ... 1092815754

MGMcAnick wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:06 am

Maybe he had murder in mind, but did he really try if he just got out of his taxi near Kavanaugh's house with weapons? Now if he'd sat down to share a beer with him, and pulled a gun, that seems to me it would be an attempt. So did he, or did he not make an attempt? Just curious.

Based on what I've heard, my guess is attempted murder was charged because the guy had made threats to Kavanaugh, was armed near Kavanaugh's home and admitted to the police that he wanted to kill him.

Edited to add this portion of the definition of attempted murder after making my above guess:

§ 720 ILCS 5/8-4. Attempt

Sec. 8-4. Attempt. (a) Elements of the Offense. A person commits an attempt when, with intent to commit a specific offense, he does any act which constitutes a substantial step toward the commission of that offense.

Weird. My father lived in the same house with his wife and kids, was constantly threatening to end us, and would often do it while cleaning one of his firearms right in his lap.

I never knew I could get him charged with attempted murder.

PS, I think he’s being charged for making threats:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... ugh-threat

The linked criminal complaint document seems to support the idea of the attempted murder charge.

Well that settles that. Thanks BSG. Interesting that you could get that info so quickly.

Joe Guy wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 09, 2022 1:54 am

The linked criminal complaint document seems to support the idea of the attempted murder charge.


Attempted Murder.jpg

The case for threatening murder is much stronger in my opinion. They might have trouble getting twelve to buy that just being in the neighborhood with a gun and a plan is an actual attempt, when he could easily have chickened out and gone home.

Did they charge the guy who sat in his truck in front of the SCOTUS building with firearms and fake explosives with attempted murder too? I guess I should be paying closer attention.

I think a whole bunch of guys who talked about and made plans to kill Governor Whitmer in Michigan got cleared of attempted murder charges didn’t they? Not murder, kidnapping. Although I think the long game plan was to put her on trial and then execute her, so really murder too.

PS - I didn’t read to the end of the charging document, you got me. Sloppy lawyering! I saw the statute and just assumed he was charged with threats to murder.

This is indeed a weird story. He was arrested because he called 911 and asked them to come and get him; he asked them to prevent him from harming himself and others. The 'guards' at the home of the Chief Justice did not interfere with his movements while he was in the vicinity of the home.

The big difference with this case compared to the Michigan Governor is that the Michigan governor is not a federal officer.

BSG, I think your illustration up above of attempted murder is inaccurate. This looks to me as though it was actually accommplished. Then again, actual
probably includes the lessor 'attempt"

snailgate

Burning Petard wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 09, 2022 1:40 pm

BSG, I think your illustration up above of attempted murder is inaccurate. This looks to me as though it was actually accommplished. Then again, actual
probably includes the lessor 'attempt"

snailgate

A murder is a group of crows. Two individuals does not a group achieve.

BSG--

I recall (from a while back) that one can be guilty of attempt so long as (s)he sets events in motion to commit the crime, even if (s)he changes his/her mind, Of course, depending how far along they were before they purportedly changed their mind (there's a big difference between going into astore to buy a gun and changing one's mind vs acquiring the gun and ammo and sitting in wait for the victim to arrive and changing their mind when the victim takes too long vs beating someone with a pipe and stopping before they die), but the is something for the jury to weigh. It might be a tough case to make, but who knows?

BoSoxGal wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 09, 2022 2:25 am

I think a whole bunch of guys who talked about and made plans to kill Governor Whitmer in Michigan got cleared of attempted murder charges didn’t they? Not murder, kidnapping. Although I think the long game plan was to put her on trial and then execute her, so really murder too.

They were never charged with attempted murder for good reason. If you read reports of the trial it becomes clear the FBI way over-stepped into entrapment, and these losers would have stayed in their stoned fantasies but for the FBI plants pushing them and providing key logistics.

e.g., https://chicago.suntimes.com/columnists ... lum-column

It sounds like this guy acted out of mental illness and sought help. I’m not sure that charging hard is the right response to this act, but we don’t live in a time of rationality.

If that's the standard then I think the guys who shouted 'Hang Mike Pence' AND brought a gallows with which to do it should be charged with attempted murder.

There's an Atlantic piece today titled "Mike Pence Is an American Hero." For once he did his fucking job. I'm pleased that he did but the man is far, far from being a hero.

ex-khobar Andy wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 09, 2022 11:55 pm

If that's the standard then I think the guys who shouted 'Hang Mike Pence' AND brought a gallows with which to do it should be charged with attempted murder.

The "gallows" brought to the Capitol on January 6 couldn't have hanged anyone and was clearly a theatrical prop. However, at least some elements within that mob were plainly set on doing harm to various perceived "enemies," including Pence, the Speaker of the House and several high-profile Members of Congress.

From the testimony and videos presented at the hearing last night, it is clear that the attack on the Capitol was was planned in advance and was not solely a spontaneous act, although it did depend on a riotous crowd following the lead/instructions of Trump and his latter-day brown-shirts. Godwin's Law be damned, these assholes were literally following the Fascist playbooks of Mussolini and Hitler (March on Rome, Beer Hall Putsch) in their insurrection and attempted coup.

ex-khobar Andy wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 09, 2022 11:55 pm

There's an Atlantic piece today titled "Mike Pence Is an American Hero." For once he did his fucking job. I'm pleased that he did but the man is far, far from being a hero.

If saying "fuck you" to Donald Trump qualifies one as a hero, I deserve a chest full of medals.

Not only that but it was a pretty quiet "Fuck You"; no oak leaf clusters for him. This man can only play both sides of the fences, even when the asshole placed his life in jeopardy. He deserves a kick in the ass, not a medal. Sure, people sell hteir souls to the devil, but to a cretin like Trump? I think he's mentally defective.

Sure, I was happy he held the session later that night and confirmed the election results but, come on, that's pretty much one of your only jobs as VP.

BSG - I saw your post with the two crows yesterday and thought - what's she on about here? I saw it again this morning as I flipped through the thread and got it immediately. Nice one.