January 6 Hearings

[BoSoxGal]

Is anyone else watching?

20 million viewers watched the live airing Thursday night, according to Nielsen. That’s just a smidge under three times the highest ratings The Apprentice ever got.

Not sure if there are any stats yet on streaming views via YouTube and various other sources.

Next hearing starts at 10am.

[Sue U]

I am only watching the re-caps. I don't get how anyone can downplay the insurrection as "no big deal," and I think that those who plotted, financed and participated in the riot should all be in prison.

[Big RR]

While I agree with you on that point, Sue, I don't think we should play to the egos of the people who occupied the capitol by calling them "insurrectionists"; they are simple thugs and criminals and should be treated as such, not "honored" with the title of some sort of freedom fighter. These guys are criminals and deserve no other recognition.

[BoSoxGal]

While I agree with you on that point, Sue, I don't think we should play to the egos of the people who occupied the capitol by calling them "insurrectionists"; they are simple thugs and criminals and should be treated as such, not "honored" with the title of some sort of freedom fighter. These guys are criminals and deserve no other recognition.

Completely disagree. These guys weren’t trying to knock over the local convenience store, they were violently attempting to overthrow the legitimate government of this nation. That is INSURRECTION and they are INSURRECTIONISTS.

Downplaying it to call them simple thugs is a big paving stone on the pathway to round two.

[Burning Petard]

They were not 'freedom fighters'. They were from the same litter as Hitler's brown shirts. " I don't get how anyone can downplay the insurrection as "no big deal," That's easy, the same way my sister still believes the election was stolen and she is a covid anti-vaxer. Go pick up "Influence" by Robert Cialdini (latest edition from May of last year) at your local library

I watched it on my local PBS stations, until they switched to the cartoon 'Big Red Dog' and I switched to MSNBC and stayed on for some of their commentary.

snailgate.

[Big RR]

No big deal? Because I don't elevate a bunch of jerks to a point where they are called "insurrectionists", a term of honor I'd bet for them, certainly doesn't mean its no big deal (anymore that calling an assassin common murderer somehow makes it less serious. That a bunch of jerks went into the capitol howling to hang the VP is a very big deal, as are the injuries they caused. But they should be treated s what they are, common criminal, not some "insurrectionist."

As for the brownshirt tie in, I recall reading that at the end of WW2, many nazis who were executed for war crimes objected to being hanged rather than shot as they were soldiers and deserved a firing squad. Anything that could bug them even a little was a job well done; and anything that does more than brand these guys common criminals undeserving of anything but what other common criminals get is a disservice to the nation.

But, for the record it was a very big deal, and they all deserve to be punished.

[Big RR]

BSG--sorry, I missed your post.

Downplaying it to call them simple thugs is a big paving stone on the pathway to round two.

Please explain how; personally, I think giving them a title they would like such as "insurrectionist" only encourages others to act bringing on rounds 2 and on; punishing them as common criminals doesn't have the cache that a revolutionary does.

ETA: Look, these guys (at least some of them) really believe that they and their guns are all that stand between us and a dictatorship; their idea of an insurrection is something to be proud of--they are taking a step to keep America "free" (and their guns, and stop abortion, and keep foreigners out...) and they shook that powers that seek to subject us so much that they recognized it as an insurrection; that is a source of pride for them. Treating them like the common criminals they are takes the wind out of those sails. Playing to their vanity only encourages more of the same.

[ex-khobar Andy]

I sort of agree with Big RR up to a point: there are those among the occupiers who would regard 'insurrectionist' as a badge of honor in that they feel that the government (whether it is Joe Biden or GHW Bush [as in Ruby Ridge] or of course Abraham Lincoln) is the oppressor and they want the same kudos as is today apportioned to the insurrectionists of 1776 - which they undoubtedly were. Alex Jones invoked 1776 with a bullhorn on Jan 6 .

Those of us who value a liberal democracy (there's a term with which to torment Trump and his enablers) need everyone to understand that this was an attempt to change the government and because it was violent, it was insurrection. IIUC Trump's activities, because he incited rather than took part in acts of violence, was sedition (and yes, he is innocent until proven guilty) while those of the Jan 6 mob who broke into the Capitol and laid hands on the cops defending the place are insurrectionists. They should be charged with common assault and insurrection, and if they are just found guilty of assault and suitably imprisoned, I'm happy enough.

But let's never forget that these guys and their boss were and are far more dangerous to the Republic and the Constitution than bin Laden and his 19 hostage takers, building destroyers and killers ever were.

[Big RR]

But let's never forget that these guys and their boss were and are far more dangerous to the Republic and the Constitution than bin Laden and his 19 hostage takers, building destroyers and killers ever were.

While I agree in principle, and also hope they are prosecuted vigorously for what they did, I also do think that there never will be a successful violent overthrow of our government unless the would be revolutionary gets our military on his/her/their side. A bunch of guys seizing control of the capitol for a time (or flying planes into a building or taking hostages) is not going to do it; nor is a would be dictator serving as president. There's just no way a few (or lots for that matter) of guys armed with small arms can defeat our military with it overwhelming power. sure, the gun nuts like to believe otherwise, but face it, it's not going to happen.

[BoSoxGal]

Yes, so that’s why the GQP/MAGAt party is currently laying the groundwork for electing MAGAt Big Lie proponents to Secretary of State positions and governorships and local election officers positions and state legislatures etc. so next time around there won’t be any people with a moral center to stand up to the demands to decertify proper elections results.

We are still in the middle of a slow moving coup, unless we stop it. We are in the midst of the greatest ever challenge to the keeping of our Republic. Scoff if you like, but bookmark this post for review in 2025 - we can discuss then if I was overreacting or if, like a great many historians, political scientists, constitutional lawyers etc. I am sounding the clarion call for all patriots to bear witness and resist.

[liberty]

Have you all changed your mind? I thought that you believe fighting with the police is a constitutionally protected form of political expression, or does it just apply to leftists.

[Scooter]

Care to provide a quote from anyone who said anything remotely resembling "fighting with the police is a constitutionally protected form of political expression"?














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Didn't think so.

Let me guess, it was "something you heard", like "Europeans don't eat corn" and "Canada was an ally of the Soviet Union".

What a moron.

[Big RR]

Yes, so that’s why the GQP/MAGAt party is currently laying the groundwork for electing MAGAt Big Lie proponents to Secretary of State positions and governorships and local election officers positions and state legislatures etc. so next time around there won’t be any people with a moral center to stand up to the demands to decertify proper elections results.

We are still in the middle of a slow moving coup, unless we stop it. We are in the midst of the greatest ever challenge to the keeping of our Republic. Scoff if you like, but bookmark this post for review in 2025 - we can discuss then if I was overreacting or if, like a great many historians, political scientists, constitutional lawyers etc. I am sounding the clarion call for all patriots to bear witness and resist.

Your point is well take BSG, but that's not the deeds of the Jan 6 people "insurrectionists", it's the deeds of some very dangerous people who seek to steal the government without a confrontation--those people do scare me. That's something that is a real danger; but it's quite different from the Proud Boys storming the capitol.

Personally, I like to think that it won't work, that on the other side will persist and prevail, but it is a very big danger--must bigger than a bunch of military militia wannabes could ever be.

[Burning Petard]

Old totalitarian regime fundamental: Don't who care who votes or how, as long as I count the votes. Clear MAGA objective to eliminate truthful, honorable Secretaries of State.

I do have a nagging question at hangs out in the back of my mind. Seems there was only one cop who used a firearm, and none used by the other side. What does that mean?

snailgate

[BoSoxGal]

I do have a nagging question at hangs out in the back of my mind. Seems there was only one cop who used a firearm, and none used by the other side. What does that mean?

snailgate

I think it means that the Capitol Police and the DC Metropolitan Police could see that they were outnumbered more than ten to one, and that they don’t carry endless clips of ammunition for their handguns, and that they had every reason to suspect that there were firearms being carried in that crowd. If they had begun shooting, it would have been a bloodbath. I credit them for showing the kind of restraint that is too rarely shown by our beat cops on the street.

There were definitely some police who sided with the insurrectionists, waved them past barriers and even took selfies with them. There were six who faced discipline for their behavior on that day, according to media reports. Another 153 Capitol police officers either resigned or retired in the year between January 6 ‘21 and January 6 ‘22, according to media reports. Who knows what reasons they had for leaving - I would expect that at least some of them were sickened by the GOP public denials of what had occurred and what they had endured at the hands of the crowd Trump called ‘loving.’

[Big RR]

Old totalitarian regime fundamental: Don't who care who votes or how, as long as I count the votes. Clear MAGA objective to eliminate truthful, honorable Secretaries of State.

Actually the thing that concerns me more than the counting of the votes (and that does concern me a great deal) is, even if votes are counted accurately, what is the future of democracy when voters can be so easily (mis)led to believe the obvious falsehoods of the MAGA crowd. It only takes a small margin to win, and when an ass like Trump can win, serving up a line of idiocy, where are we, as a nation headed. It appears that people are far too willing to outsource their thinking to someone else; we don't need a coup, we just need enough of those people to keep the idiots in power.

[ex-khobar Andy]

I said it when Trump won in 2016 and I have seen no reason to change my mind. The truly terrifying takeaway is not that people like Trump exist - humans have had to deal with posers and charlatans since the dawn of time and we have figured out how to cope with them - but that pretty much one voter in two (not one in ten or one in a hundred) think that he's a good idea.

Lincoln told us: "You can fool some of the people all of the time and you can fool all of the people some of the time, but you cant't fool all of the people all of the time." Yes: but Trump showed us that you can fool enough of the people enough of the time.

[Sue U]

Your point is well take BSG, but that's not the deeds of the Jan 6 people "insurrectionists", it's the deeds of some very dangerous people who seek to steal the government without a confrontation--those people do scare me. That's something that is a real danger; but it's quite different from the Proud Boys storming the capitol.

Personally, I like to think that it won't work, that on the other side will persist and prevail, but it is a very big danger--must bigger than a bunch of military militia wannabes could ever be.

O hai, August 2019, what was I saying nearly three years ago?

While it's (almost) funny to call Trump a commie or a socialist for his apparent embrace of a command economy, what we are witnessing is the very real rise of a fascist government, and I am not speaking in hyperbole. As I have pointed out before, fascist economic theory (such as it is) provides for dictatorial control over ostensibly private property and subordinates existing capitalist economic activity to the state.

***[quotes Wikipedia entry on the rise of fascism in Europe after WW I]***

If you are not at least unnerved by the direction the current US government is headed -- and I am well on my way to terrified -- you are ignoring the blaring klaxon horns and flashing red lights of history coming around again for another whack. THIS IS NOT A DRILL. Democracy is a lot more fragile than any of us would like to believe, and a government that so casually takes a battering ram to the foundations of the American experiment with the complicity of Congress (cough Mitch McConnell cough) can bring it down pretty quickly.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18526&p=274009

We are still in the middle of a slow moving coup, unless we stop it. We are in the midst of the greatest ever challenge to the keeping of our Republic. Scoff if you like, but bookmark this post for review in 2025 - we can discuss then if I was overreacting or if, like a great many historians, political scientists, constitutional lawyers etc. I am sounding the clarion call for all patriots to bear witness and resist.

Yeah, you can very clearly trace the rise of a neo-fascist GOP through the posts on this board, which I date to (at least) the "Tea Party" fuckery following the 2008 election, when it abandoned any pretense of "policy" and "government":

Well, I've said it before, but now it's conclusive: The insane wingnut faction is dressed in a suicide vest and has barricaded itself inside the GOP with 4 tons of C4.

Jim, in true Frankensteinian (Frankenstinian?) fashion your party created a monster that has come back to kill its creator. It is now no longer a convenient tool for Republican pandering to the retarded racist xenophobe "base;" it is now the blood-thirsty bootlicking zombie servant of the Scaife-Koch-Olin cabal and corporate masters of the pharma, insurance and petrochemical industries, who are only too happy to piss all over the teabaggers and tell them it's just trickle-down economics.

***

Jim, what you are witnessing is a genuine hijacking of the Republican party by powerful anti-tax, anti-regulation corporate interests working hand-in-glove with far-right extremist ideologues to manipulate an angry and ignorant bloc of the electorate. Recognizing that it could not successfully create its own independent neo-Fascist party out of whole cloth, the "Tea Party" funding is essentially nothing less than a wholesale purchase of the GOP apparatus in situ. It's a shrewd move: even if it doesn't result in electoral majorities, a sufficiently strident opposition can hamstring legislative initiatives of the majority (as we've seen the last 18 months). It's cynical, it's disgusting, and it's proving to be very effective. But if you're looking for a party of principled policy positions capable of the political give-and-take necessary for a functioning government, the GOP is no longer your first choice.

viewtopic.php?p=13290#p13290; posting.php?mode=quote&f=3&p=13306

With Trump's entry into politics, the "Tea Party" morphed into MAGA, redirecting the same right-wing socio-political rage into an overtly authoritarian format with a cult-of-personality overlay. We are now well into the period of Weimar America and hurtling towards 1933, with latter-day brownshirts and everything.

[BoSoxGal]

YES, all of that. And I was noticing when you were pointing it out at the time.

I’m surrendering to the anxiety and gloom, focusing on finding little bits of joy in each day and trying to be philosophical about watching a terrible history recreating itself.

I can’t imagine how it feels for people like you who are paying attention and have children. Most folks are just sleepwalking through life consuming and producing, and when the time comes a great many of them will just go with the flow to get along.

[Big RR]

True, but then I've always raised my children to be anti-authoritarian; we'll need younger people like that when we're gone. Some people will go long, and others will resist as best they can. Hopefully it won't come to that, but if it does, I hope (pretty much I am sure that) my kids won't just fall into line. Of course, I imagine that the person who is the big brother in the cult of personality will be a lot better at it than Trump, charming more people than he pisses off. If that comes to pass we may well be doomed.