Christian nationalism

[Sue U]

Didn't know whether to put this in Politics or Religion or something else, but this video been making the rounds on that stupid bird app and it has really gotten under my skin. I am not prone to panic or over-reaction -- I think I take a pretty calm and measured approach to most social issues. But I have no idea how seriously to take this or how many adherents this kind thinking might have, and it is setting off all kinds of emergency alarms for me and triggering serious fight-or-flight reflexes. I thought it was just her usual ignorance and idiocy when Marjorie Taylor Green decided to proclaim herself a "proud Christian nationalist," but after this month's CPAC conference it is clear this ideology has taken significant root in the conservative/Republican world, and the ascendant Trumpists are only too ready to exploit it in their quest for power and control. Being a "leftist" and most definitely not-a-Christian, I am getting a serious case of the creeping heebie-jeebies and wondering if I should be making plans for ... um, what? What do you think?

[Burning Petard]

Among professional religionists in the USofA for a while there has been an increasing awareness of this nationalism/authoritarianism movement. I could easily find a half dozen articles in 'Christian' journals for the last year speculating that this Christian nationalism will tear apart the USofA in a manner worse than our Civil War/War Between the States/War for States Rights.

America as a Christian Nation? Attention is to be given to the 1796 'Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary" The English version of the treaty was printed out and distributed to the Senate. Article 11 states: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims]; and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Mohammedan] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

On June 7, 1797 this treaty, in its English translation, was approved unanimously by all Senators present. Many of them were signatory to the US Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.

This is not a sudden blooming from Trump supporters. Look into the history and functioning of Regent University. The name itself is informative.

snailgate

[Sue U]

Look, I need to know in practical terms how worried I should be about these people. This article (excerpts below) is probably tl;dr but details the apparently substantial political connections and influence wielded by this movement, as well as its extremely problematic (to me) foundational principles:

A video of the recitation (shown above) was viewed more than 3 million times on Twitter. In the replies, many people expressed horror at what they had seen. Although few were aware, they had just witnessed the fruits of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR). The NAR is a rapidly accelerating and dangerously under-reported worldwide Christian authoritarian movement. It practices faith healing and exorcism and promotes dominionism, a belief that Christians must take control of government, business and culture in order for Jesus to return to earth. The men on stage included NAR apostles Dutch Sheets (who wrote the decree) and Lance Wallhau, along with two close colleagues, pastors Mario Murillo and Hank Kunneman. The fifth man, pastor Gene Bailey, hosted the event for his show Flashpoint on Victory TV, a Christian network that platforms the NAR and pro-Trump Make America Great (MAGA) influencers.

Disgraced former Trump National Security Advisor, Michael Flynn, a retired lieutenant general with an intelligence and special operations background, has appeared on Flashpoint several times and seems to have formed an alliance with the NAR. Longtime Trump advisor Roger Stone, who works with Flynn and has ties to violent extremists, embraces the NAR as well. He, Flynn, and other like-minded MAGA influencers and Christian authoritarian zealots are coming to Pennsylvania for the final stop of the so-called “Reawaken America Tour” (RAT). The tour was founded by Clay Clarkson, a far right podcast host from Oklahoma, and is sponsored by NAR apostle Steve Strang through Charisma News, one of Strang’s media companies. Several NAR apostles have spoken on the RAT. Spooky Nook Sports in Mannheim is hosting the event on October 21 and 22.

***

The NAR also opposes freedom of religion, teaching instead that Christians must exert dominion over all aspects of our society. The NAR isn’t the only movement that espouses dominionism, but it may be the most influential. As explained by Wagner, who fathered the NAR:

“Dominion has to do with control. Dominion has to do with rulership. Dominion has to do with authority and subduing. And it relates to society. In other words, what the values are in Heaven need to be made manifest on earth. Dominion means being the head and not the tail. Dominion means ruling as kings.”

The specific pillars of society over which the NAR plans to “rule as kings” are seven-fold: 1. business, 2. government, 3. family, 4. religion, 5. media, 6. education, and 7. entertainment. NAR leaders call this the “Seven Mountains” mandate. Others call it heresy. (A good discussion can be found here.)

***

NAR apostles also claim that demons are engaged in “spiritual warfare” on earth. NAR apostle Cindy Jacobs offers a $97 “spiritual warfare” course, and NAR apostle Dutch Sheets wrote an e-book called “Spiritual Warfare for the Lost.” NAR apostle Steve Strang, who sponsors the RAT, recently wrote that, “I believe God raised up Donald Trump and there is warfare going on—satanic activity that is trying to tear down the fabric of this country. *** We need to take authority over the enemy. We are in a movement for righteousness to reclaim our country from the hands of the wicked.” In 2018, Wallnau tweeted. “Some people say I’ve gotten off balance because I focus too much on Trump and politics. Not so. *** I’m a witness to the spiritual war over America that centers on Cyrus Trump.”

Seriously, what should I be prepared for? Do I have to make contingency plans, and if so, to do what? How much of a threat does this actually pose to what I had always though were bedrock American values of pluralism and tolerance? Are these the people who have been running for local school boards to ban books, what they imagine to be "critical race theory," sex education and honest discussion of social issues? Or is that another set of fanatical idiots I have to watch out for?

[BoSoxGal]

Sue did you happen to see the CNN special report this past weekend on the alarming rise in anti semitism in the USA? I was thinking of you and this thread when I watched it.

All I know is that my life experience and observation has taught me that despite our many glorious achievements the mass of humans are emotionally infantile and thus reactionary, easily manipulated and capable of violence. Let the right psychopaths get in charge and those masses will embrace any degree of intolerance if it means belonging to something that validates them and their grievances.

I would definitely have a plan. I am planning. I feel like a frog in a pot of water on the stove - I want to know I can jump out before things reach a boiling point.

[ex-khobar Andy]

And to your point, Germany was probably almost unanimously the most cultured and free and easy of nations, up to about the 30s. Think the country of Goethe and Beethoven, of Martin Luther, of Weimar and Brecht and Cabaret. And yet Hitler happened; and his eventual rise was essentially almost democratic in nature.

[MajGenl.Meade]

"Luther"? Not exactly the poster-boy for non-oppression of the working (agricultural) classes, Andy

But . . . back to the other. I am as alarmed as Sue, not only for the reasons that lead her to see a threat, but also for the woeful Biblical ignorance of these "Christians". I'd go so far as to accuse them of heresy, blasphemy and downright paganism.

The God I read of in the Bible (and believe) is supremely uninterested in the longevity or indeed survival of the United States of America or of any other country. He is concerned with people, not nations. He is, if you like or don't like, about building His kingdom, not any other. A case is often made for a physical Israel but since the earth is destined to destruction (science and the Bible agree), it is my opinion that "Israel" is God's people, not a geographic area but an existential idea.

Flashpoint Live, based on ignorance and mob mentality, anger and hatred, is a visible sign of a victory of evil. (Yeah, I guess y'all don't believe that last thing but I bet you agree on the first four items there).

[Big RR]

Sue--it never hurts to keep an eye on things and plan for contingencies but don't forget, just because a group is loud doesn't mean that its beliefs are subscribed to by a lot of people. I would think many christians would agree with Meade and see this for the idiocy that it is, and not something to be drawn to. Sure, they could be the next group of Hitler and the nazis, but for every Hitler or Franco, there are hundreds also-rans like Koresh, Warren Jeffs, or Charles Manson with dreams of domination (however borad based or narrow their desires were) that were never realized. Personally, I think anything that welcomes Marjorie Taylor Greene can't be anything but a flash in the pan, but it does bear watching.

And Meade, I think the speaking out of people of faith against this idiocy is essential, if only to avoid making people think that is the essence of the religion. You make your point well.

[Sue U]

Sue did you happen to see the CNN special report this past weekend on the alarming rise in anti semitism in the USA? I was thinking of you and this thread when I watched it.

I did not see it, as I was on the road taking my daughter back to college over the weekend. I'll see if I can find it on the youtubes or a streamer or whatever. (I don't watch much TV, but at the hotel it was on when I checked in so I did happen to catch a few minutes of a CNN program where they were discussing Guns In America. I was shocked at how insipid it was, and particularly how, through a panel of real live Americans, it promoted all the dumbest rhetoric and de-bunked theories around the issue. Ten years after Sandy Hook and apparently no one has learned a goddamn thing.)

Flashpoint Live, based on ignorance and mob mentality, anger and hatred, is a visible sign of a victory of evil. (Yeah, I guess y'all don't believe that last thing but I bet you agree on the first four items there).

Oh sure I believe in evil, and that it is often victorious. In this case, it seems to be rising from a stoking of (primarily white) grievance and a belief that (again, white) Christians are somehow oppressed and threatened. But I am trying to get some sense of how widely these beliefs are held and how ready people are to act on them (or go along with those who do). Frankly, no one I know (well, as far as I know) is any kind of Dominionist or Christian nationalist or whatever they're calling themselves. I don't know anyone who goes to a church like the ones shown in the videos. It's simply not part of my world, But I can see that there are people out there for whom this is in fact their world and worldview. I just can't tell how prevalent or accepted it is, and frankly that makes me nervous.

And Meade, I think the speaking out of people of faith against this idiocy is essential, if only to avoid making people think that is the essence of the religion. You make your point well.

I agree 100%.

[Sue U]

I would definitely have a plan. I am planning.

Sue--it never hurts to keep an eye on things and plan for contingencies

I grew up with family's stories of being emigrants and refugees because things got bad. Those who were a bit too slow to leave, well, we know how that ended. I have no interest in losing everything to a fascist state or a civil war, but I don't want to be caught in either.

[MajGenl.Meade]

I don't know anyone who goes to a church like the ones shown in the videos.

Nor do I and I've been to a few churches, from large to just me, a grandma and a pastor (the three of us formulated a program to take over the world).

However, the idea that "the USA is a Christian nation" (in regard to the founding) is one that would probably resonate with a few not-church-going Christians of my acquaintance and even some who do go. In their eyes, it's quite a harmless view, something to do with being started by Pilgrims dedicated to the proposition etc. It can lead into swampy territory though.

Again, I feel sure that many Christians I know are indeed against abortion or more likely semi-against abortion. Some I know (not of a church I attend now) are pro-Trump - likely to use words such as "they" meaning something else - and otherwise needing my wise and loving correction. These are ordinary USians, not given to storming Capitols or even attending mass-hysteria "Christian" gatherings.

What I fear from these - my friends and others - is that their conservative stance does not include opposing (not in my hearing) the extreme rightist lies and dogma. And those who go-along enable the goers.

[Burning Petard]

Yes, the scriptural ignorance is blatant. The lauded victory for Christians everywhere when the Supremes said it was ok for the football coach to have a prayer meeting on the field with everybody watching -- For me it is probably legal, but I am concerned about the coercion involved by the coach toward the players. But why do those on the side of the coach claim to be Christian? When the man who came to be called 'the Christ' was specifically asked by his followers how to pray, because John the Baptizer had particular instructions for his followers, Jesus plainly said do not do it in public, where everybody can see you. (Gospel of Matthew chapter six, verses five and six.)

Big difference between it's legal and morally or ethically desirable. The USofA has been here before. See Father Caughlin and before that the "Know Nothing' party comes to mind. Coercion is the common thread. "I know I am right. All who disagree with me are wrong. I must destroy them because if I allow their wrongness to exist, it just might indicate I could be wrong." When I was in 9th grade public school civics class, a big part of the class was indoctrination (way beyond instruction) that Russia/Communism/Marxism (all conflated, no distinction or nuance) was more dangerous than anything else we could imagine. I caused the teacher to blow up when I asked "If it is so bad, what are we afraid of--it will just collapse from its own failures.?"

One of the big differences now is the internet. Before, whacky beliefs were isolated. The internet has made it possible to band together the way Q-Anon has grown. Nobody I have run across has any way out. The bloody conflict seems inevitable. Liberalism, the general acceptance that disagreement is OK, freedom and liberty are the best expressions of social darwinism, leading to better life for all--has declining support in the USofA. The greater good for the greatest number is now defined by the right as obedience and submission to a human authority who is recognized as the mouth-piece of G-d.

Sue, I have no recommendation for others. I myself switch back and forth between martyr and hermit, and everything in-between. If you are not depressed and paranoid, you have not been paying attention.

I still have not read a newspaper or watched a tv news show. Un- happily, I am well supplied with books that foster that paranoia.

Gen'l Mead, check out the Atlantic magazine for last June.

snailgate.

[ex-khobar Andy]

And re that praying pastor on the football field - I might even agree that he has that right, but I would argue that anyone in a position of authority should have the basic intelligence and decency and sensitivity to decide to not exercise that right.

[BoSoxGal]

This is a good interview with Dana Bash on her special for CNN. I am trying to find a full episode video for you.

Dana Bash says her new CNN special on antisemitism is ‘one of the most important things I’ve ever done’

[Sue U]

What I fear from these - my friends and others - is that their conservative stance does not include opposing (not in my hearing) the extreme rightist lies and dogma. And those who go-along enable the goers.

Yeah, that is a big part of my problem here, and from what's going on next door in the PA governor's race I'm getting the sense that far too many people are okay with this kind of politics promoting Christian (and let's face it, white) supremacy. This is the clear politics of kulturkampf that candidly aims to undermine fundamental constitutional principles and pave the way for fascism: we all know the warning that when fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross. My very genuine fear is that not only is American fascism already here, that's obvious, it appears to be very rapidly ascendant in the Republican party -- with no institutional resistance but instead a warm embrace. Look at the GOP nominees for very serious offices this year and the tenor of the campaigns they run. I can't tell you how much this elevates my level of concern towards panic.

ETA:

Oh, and as if I needed any more anxiety, this week's charming story out of the AZ gubernatorial campaign:

Kari Lake will disavow gay-bashing antisemite or the election is over
Opinion: If Lake doesn't rescind her endorsement of Jarrin Jackson, she'll provide proof-positive she is unfit for governor.
Phil Boas
Arizona Republic


Kari Lake at CPAC: “We drove a stake through the heart of the McCain machine.”[/size]

Arizona will seldom have moments of clarity like this, so let’s get to the brutal facts.

One of our two-major party candidates for governor has just endorsed a man who hates Jewish people, despises gay people and wants no Black or brown immigrants in this country.

Jarrin Jackson is no casual bigot. He has produced such a stream of internet bile he can only be seen as a committed anti-Semite, homophobe and racist – one of the most vile people in political life, unfit for government and unwelcome in polite society.

And yet Jarrin Jackson, Republican candidate for the Oklahoma state Senate, tweeted on Wednesday that he has won the endorsement of Kari Lake, Arizona Republican candidate for governor. There he was photoshopped together with the smiling Lake, two peas in a tweet.

"I am honored to be endorsed by the #AmericaFirst (and Trump-endorsed) warrior who drained the McCain swamp in Arizona and is now the GOP nominee for governor in Arizona – Kari Lake. She is a rising star and her endorsement is a big deal! Thank you, Kari!"
The damning evidence of a fevered mind

Nearly a full month before Jackson announced his Kari Lake endorsement, reporter Carmen Forman of our sister paper The Oklahoman provided an expansive view of Jackson’s fevered mind.

On the social media app Telegram and other forums, Jackson said:

* Using the phrase LGBTQ “is using language designed by Satan.”

* “LGBTQ is the gateway to pedophilia.”

* “Call me old fashioned, but I don’t want a society of homosexuals.”

* “(Being gay) is the most disgusting, despicable, stupid blehh (makes gagging noise) thing ever. Insert barf emoji. And yet, we’re supposed to celebrate this and supposed to treat it like it’s normal?"

* "All Jews will go to hell if they don't believe the gospel of Jesus Christ … just like everybody else."

* "I love Jews because Christ told me to, not because they deserve it."

* "I'm not beholden to Jews or any other group."

* "I ain't owned by the Jews. I worship Jesus Christ. He's my Messiah."

* "Outline & detail the evil. Amen. ...The Jews, Illuminati, Covid shots kill. Rothschilds. Communists. Woke pastors. Social gospel. Christ will chuck a bunch of stuff in the fire."

Two-and-a-half weeks before The Oklahoman published its story, the website Media Matters and its writer Eric Hananoki reported that Jackson had said:

* He does not want Hispanic and Black immigrants in the United States because he wants “America to stay American.”

* “He ‘largely’ agrees with the conspiracy theories that Jews are ‘taking over the world’ and that they are attempting to get rid of white people through immigration and miscegenation (cohabitation between a white person and a member of another race).”

* “The Jews” are evidence that “evil exists.”

* He supports “a conspiracy theory called the Kalergi Plan which claims that elites, especially Jewish people, are trying to rid the world of white people."

***

Source: AZCentral.com

[BoSoxGal]

I just got done my weekly therapy session in which my anxiety over rising fascism here was a major focus. My therapist shares the anxiety and we have spoken of it regularly in the year+ I have been working with her. It’s a primary source of my anxiety and depression as I know it is for many people in this country - since Trump was elected the rates of mental health issues in the general population have risen even before covid19. There are millions of people in this country who were raised by abusive authoritarians so having a president in the White House and on the Twitter spewing abuse and pursuing policies in which the cruelty was the point has been triggering for many folks who live with childhood trauma. Many others are just people who belong to identity categories that are likely to be persecuted or worse if the Christo-fascists retake the government. Spending time as I sometimes do perusing the darker corners of the internet, I am well aware that there is blood lust out there for us - for DemonRats and LGBTQIA folks and for Jews and people of color and women who don’t behave. I have not one doubt that the capacity for atrocities exists in American society - it only needs the right trigger.

At this point I’m doing the addiction recovery approach of one day at a time, and daily considering my secular version of the serenity prayer. I have dread over what is coming in November. My dearest hope is that abortion will save democracy, but even if there is massive left and center voter turnout to repel a red wave, that doesn’t mean they won’t take to the streets with their guns in response to the election results.

We are teetering. I am not catastrophizing - not when leading experts in political instability are pointing to all the factors that suggest the USA is already no longer a democracy. Not when international entities have downgraded America from democracy to anocracy and thus we are no longer the world’s oldest continuous democracy.

What we are living is the real life example of being in the pot of water and having to figure out just at what point the water is getting too hot.

[BoSoxGal]

Just saw an interview on MSNBC with the writer of this piece. He talked about the NAR and the dominion approach which he alleges this Patriot Mobile takeover of Texas school boards is an example - they backed candidates who took over the boards and they’ve just issued banned books lists for these schools and explicitly prohibited the teaching of American history that includes honest discussions of institutionalized racism etc.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/-c ... -rcna44583

[BoSoxGal]

I also just wanted to park this here, in case there is any chance that my friends here might miss it:

https://pbs.org/video/us-and-holocaust- ... rce=social

I’m quite sure the content of this new Burns documentary will contain history of the likes that more and more school boards are forbidding teachers from teaching to public school students.

[BoSoxGal]

What do you think he means when he tells American Jews ‘before it’s too late’?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 518971002/

[MajGenl.Meade]

I think, (sometimes it happens), he means exactly what any non-desperate understanding of the words would indicate.

Amerikan Jews should get behind Israel before it's too late and Israel is overwhelmed by PC forces that work ceaselessly to destroy Israel. That's his meaning.

His remark is tasteless and stupid - what else? - but as much as I detest the man, I don't think he meant anything "anti-Semitic". It's just his usual clueless asshole way of expressing himself - which I blame on early toilet training.

His kind of "Evangelicals" are Israel-mad because (although the Jews are terribly wrong about God and such) it's in the land of Israel that God will redeem / stamp the eternal passport / finally tell those Jews they got it wrong and they'll agree (or not - what can a guy do?). Israel has mythic meaning for some "Evangelicals", as if God ever put place above people.

Anyway, sturm und drang in a teacup (Drumpf's brain)

[BoSoxGal]

Well I know you ain’t dumb, so you must be very fine people.