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BoSoxGal
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Abortion Stories

Post by BoSoxGal »

Building on our discussion in another thread, I thought it was a good idea to start a separate thread about the horrors being inflicted on girls and women by the Hobbs decision and subsequent trigger laws.

This story is just sickening.
Louisiana hospital denies abortion for fetus without a skull

Baton Rouge woman's predicament illustrates gray area in Louisiana's abortion rules

By EMILY WOODRUFF | Staff writer
Aug 17, 2022 - 1:20 pm

At the beginning of July, Nancy Davis started feeling nauseous. The Baton Rouge resident considered COVID-19 or the flu, then decided to take a pregnancy test just in case. She saw the two blue lines denoting a positive test and ran to the living room to tell her boyfriend. They were both elated.

But their happiness was short-lived. At the first ultrasound, at Woman’s Hospital, the largest birthing center in Louisiana, the technician looked troubled and left the room. A woman in a white coat entered. Davis knew that wasn’t good.

The doctor pointed to the top of the head. There was no skull, she told Davis, an unsurvivable condition. The doctor tried to comfort her, saying this was one of the conditions that qualifies as an exception under the state’s abortion laws. Davis, about 10 weeks into her pregnancy, was still heartbroken.

“There was nothing I would have preferred more than to have this baby,” said Davis, 36. Instead, she prepared herself to pay an estimated $5,000 for an abortion at the hospital.

But that’s not what happened. Even after doctors at the hospital said they would provide an abortion once she got the diagnosis of acrania, a rare and fatal condition, from a specialist, the hospital called to tell her it would not be able to do it, she said. The hospital directed her to a Florida abortion clinic instead, or to carry the baby to term.

'Medically futile'

Davis' predicament illustrates the gray area in Louisiana's new abortion law and the administrative regulations that attempt to explain it to medical professionals and the public. They all but forbid abortion, except to save the life of the mother or when the fetus is "medically futile," according to a list of conditions issued by the state.

Acrania does not appear on the state’s list of accepted conditions for abortion. But the state also has a broad exception for any “profound and irremediable congenital or chromosomal anomaly existing in the unborn child that is incompatible with sustaining life after birth in reasonable medical judgment.”

Two physicians must sign off on the anomaly. But Woman’s still said it would not perform the abortion.

“In the absence of additional guidance, we must look at each patient’s individual circumstances and remain in compliance with all current state laws to the best of our ability,” said Caroline Isemann, a hospital spokesperson, in a statement.

That's not how some doctors have interpreted the law.

'They just won't function'

“Acrania, to me, is synonymous with anencephaly, and it’s on the list,” said Dr. Cecilia Gambala, a maternal fetal medicine specialist at Tulane University School of Medicine, referring to another brain and spine defect. “There is no skull.”

Gambala said that even if hospital attorneys were uncomfortable with giving the go-ahead for an abortion based on the acrania diagnosis, they could use the broad exception that the state allows for when a fetus is incompatible with life. And acrania, in Gambala's opinion, meets that description.

"Babies can be born alive, they just won't function," Gambala said. "Their heart might be beating, they can breathe, but they have no brain tissue to actually develop as far as comprehending what's happening or reacting to anything."

Guidance needed

Cases like this will become more common until there is more clarity surrounding the law, whether from legislation, additional guidance from the state Health Department or litigation, said Matthew Brown, a New Orleans-based attorney specializing in health care law.

“The problem is very specific,” Brown said. “And that’s why the law doesn’t address it.”

Brown said the hospital may view the fetus as currently viable because acrania is not immediately fatal and there is still a heartbeat. It also doesn’t immediately endanger the life of the mother, even though the health risks and psychological risks are significant as the pregnancy continues.

Other hospitals may see the situation differently. Until there is more clarity, scenarios like this will continue to play out, he said.

"Any pregnant woman at this point, even the ones [who] are hoping for a healthy child and planning to give birth, is facing additional uncertainty about how they're going to be cared for under bad circumstances because of this law," Brown said.

After seeing a maternal fetal medicine specialist, Davis starting researching the condition on her own. She found devastating images of infants and fetuses who looked like they were missing parts of their heads. She read that babies with acrania are stillborn or die shortly after birth, just like her doctors told her.

“I haven’t run across a case where these babies live,” Davis said.

Time is running out

The nearest abortion clinic that can take Davis is an eight-hour drive, and would require a week's stay because she needs a consultation before the procedure.

“I can’t just get up and shoot out; I have kids,” said Davis, who has a 13-year-old and a 1-year-old and no transportation, after a hit-and-run wreck totaled her car a few months back.

Florida also bans abortions after the 15th week of pregnancy, and Davis is now nearing 14 weeks. The next-closest state, North Carolina, is a 15-hour drive.

In desperation, Davis visited Care Pregnancy Clinic, a pregnancy crisis center that discourages abortions, on Flannery Road. Staff gave her information on how to bury the baby and said their prayers were with her.

“It makes me feel horrible, like I’m alone in this,” Davis said. “It makes me feel like they just threw me to the wolves.”

After being told to go to Florida, Davis said she wanted other people to know how laws decided in the Louisiana Legislature play out in real life.

“I never in a million years thought it would affect me like this,” she said. “It seems like Louisiana is the hardest place right now to get that done. They don't even wanna say that word.”
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Abortion Stories

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Distinct lack of balls at the hospital. I don't see the law at fault in this particular case (even if it is deplorable elsewise). Why didn't they just do the abortion. having sufficient grounds under the law, and stand up for something decent?
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Re: Abortion Stories

Post by Bicycle Bill »

Two words — jury nullification.
Even though there are sufficient grounds, one never knows how a right-wing judge or jury will rule if the matter ever goes to trial — regardless of evidence — and at that point the civil litigation floodgates (and the possibility of multi-million dollar judgements) are wide open.
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Re: Abortion Stories

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

One word - rhetorical

Jury nullification is when a jury ignores the law and finds the defendant NOT guilty, thus nullifying the law.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Re: Abortion Stories

Post by Sue U »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Sat Aug 20, 2022 2:51 am
Distinct lack of balls at the hospital. I don't see the law at fault in this particular case (even if it is deplorable elsewise). Why didn't they just do the abortion. having sufficient grounds under the law, and stand up for something decent?
Because the hospital's Risk Management office said something like this: "There are two interpretations of the statute, one which would allow it and one which prohibits it, and we don't want our facility becoming the very expensive test case for which way a court might read it. It's not our job to make pubic policy, and as a practical matter getting involved in any case with such a controversial issue will lead to a lot of misinformation and agitation on social media, with the accompanying death threats and bomb scares against the hospital and staff."

This is where we live now, and you can thank the radical right and religious extremists for it.
GAH!

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Re: Abortion Stories

Post by Sue U »

Bicycle Bill wrote:
Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:23 am
.
Even though there are sufficient grounds, one never knows how a right-wing judge or jury will rule if the matter ever goes to trial — regardless of evidence — and at that point the civil litigation floodgates (and the possibility of multi-million dollar judgements) are wide open.
Not every problem is solvable with a lawsuit, much to my dismay.
GAH!

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Re: Abortion Stories

Post by Bicycle Bill »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Sat Aug 20, 2022 11:35 am
One word - rhetorical

Jury nullification is when a jury ignores the law and finds the defendant NOT guilty, thus nullifying the law.
I'm aware of the actual meaning of 'jury nullification', but I didn't know the correct term — or if there even is one — for 'following the law down to the last little comma, regardless of extenuating conditions', so I tossed that one in there.
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Re: Abortion Stories

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

That reminds me of a tactic adopted by labour unions in the UK - maybe 70s - called 'work to rule.' Instead of an all out strike, the union would just have its members working exactly to the rule book. Just as effective in that productivity dropped markedly - I don't recall the percentage - but it made the additional point that many of the rules were there for no purpose other than to protect the employer in the event of some sort of accident. Kinda like those 20 page terms and conditions you have to sign every time you update your operating system that we all say we have read and hope that there is not, somewhere on page 17, something about sending in your first born child.

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Re: Abortion Stories

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

I did that, Andy. Returning to work after the GPO '71 strike of seven weeks, we were not content with the speed of the enactment of the settlement, so "worked to rule". Among many other items, the Rule required that telegrams be sorted and filed in numerical order "carefully checked"

A lot of walking about seeking confirmation from independent witnesses (our pals) as to whether or not 582 came before or after 581. And then of course, the poll to find out if it came before or after 583. Never knew if it did any good but it was a lot of fun and not much work got done until we got fed up with it
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Re: Abortion Stories

Post by BoSoxGal »

This legislator caught the car:



https://youtu.be/QXesK-EurXk
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Re: Abortion Stories

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Admitting wrong and fault? I hope he lasts and that Trumpistas don't get him down.

His father died yesterday. Nothing quite like mortality (and thinking of that one real lady of whom he spoke) to lead to an awakening.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Re: Abortion Stories

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This is a real problem in letting mostly men make laws for governing women's bodies. The numbers of women requiring a D&C following fetal death/miscarriage are substantial and the failure to obtain one at the optimal stage will result in too many young and healthy women becoming infertile and isn’t that profoundly anti life?
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

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Re: Abortion Stories

Post by Sue U »

BoSoxGal wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 2:55 am
This is a real problem in letting mostly men make laws for governing women's bodies. The numbers of women requiring a D&C following fetal death/miscarriage are substantial and the failure to obtain one at the optimal stage will result in too many young and healthy women becoming infertile and isn’t that profoundly anti life?
In politics, it's never been about being "pro-life."
GAH!

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Re: Abortion Stories

Post by Bicycle Bill »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 2:17 am
Admitting wrong and fault? I hope he lasts and that Trumpistas don't get him down.

His father died yesterday. Nothing quite like mortality (and thinking of that one real lady of whom he spoke) to lead to an awakening.
But by his own words, he was abstaining from voting ... he did not say he was voting against it.
Those who stand by and do nothing while people pass oppressive laws and commit heinous acts are almost as complicit as the perpetrators.
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Re: Abortion Stories

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

The House's version of the bill advanced to the full chamber in a 13-7 vote Tuesday, with Collins and five other Republicans declining to vote. The video is of his remarks in Committee when he stated he would not vote to pass the bill from Committee to the House. Perhaps in the SC House, he will cast his vote in the correct direction - perhaps the other five will do so as well. With the preponderance of Reps, that's unlikely to change anything.

But I fear that all they really want to do is to send to the SC Senate an abortion bill that is less draconian than the "heartbeat" law - allowing exceptions perhaps for rape and incest. And the Governor has already signaled he'd sign a lesser bill despite his personal wish for a total ban. I wish they'd cancel the entire damn thing and adopt Roe v Wade - no hope of that.

Equally troubling, the division in the USA between group views of political/moral/legal issues cuts both ways. Contempt for the law, the courts, and weakening people's faith in democracy is not solely the province of Trumpians. I see the same vituperation, undermining of social systems and downright dismissal of legal process coming from the those who usually condemn such an approach.

It is all very worrying. All of it.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Re: Abortion Stories

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We are holding onto our democracy by the skin of our teeth at this point. November will be make or break. Ironically it may be abortion that saves the democracy, if a blue wave comes to the polls to preserve abortion access we could crush the MAGAts in their tracks, at least at the ballot boxes.

I still fear that some, or even many, of them will take to the streets in violence.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

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Re: Abortion Stories

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

BoSoxGal wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 10:31 pm
We are holding onto our democracy by the skin of our teeth at this point. November will be make or break. Ironically it may be abortion that saves the democracy, if a blue wave comes to the polls to preserve abortion access we could crush the MAGAts in their tracks, at least at the ballot boxes.

I still fear that some, or even many, of them will take to the streets in violence.
Yes that may be so - both propositions
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Re: Abortion Stories

Post by BoSoxGal »

Releasing in October- should have a positive impact on Roe voter turnout, which already appears to be a force to be reckoned with. I’m reading that voter registration is way up, especially among women. I think the GOP is going to be very sad when they realize they caught the car but lost their dominance over the white woman vote.

https://youtu.be/U-1pUnTsSQc

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

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Re: Abortion Stories

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Interesting piece about the faith tradition in which Amy Coney Barrett was raised up - emphasizing the subservience of women.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... -of-praise
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

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Re: Abortion Stories

Post by Burning Petard »

I feel helpless. What is the point? On Jan 21, 2017 there occurred the largest protest march in US history. Yet here we are today. Does the Smithsonian Institution have any Pink Pussy Hats?

snailgate

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