Jan 6 Committee issues final report

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ex-khobar Andy
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Jan 6 Committee issues final report

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

And Adam Schiff has an opinion piece in NYT:. (Note: my underlining for emphasis)
Don’t Forget That Many Republicans in Congress Enabled Trump’s Big Lie

On Dec. 27, 2020, more than six weeks after losing re-election, an infuriated President Donald Trump telephoned his acting attorney general, Jeffrey Rosen. Mr. Trump’s former attorney general, Bill Barr, had announced his resignation less than two weeks earlier, after telling the president that the claims of election fraud Mr. Trump had been trumpeting were — as Mr. Barr later bluntly put it in testimony — “bullshit” and publicly affirming that there was no fraud on a scale that would affect the outcome of the election.

With Mr. Rosen’s deputy, Richard Donoghue, also on the line, Mr. Trump launched into the same tired, disproved and discredited allegations he had propagated so often at rallies, during news conferences and on social media. None of it was true, and Mr. Donoghue told him so. According to Mr. Donoghue, Mr. Trump, exasperated that his own handpicked top appointees at the Justice Department would not affirm his baseless allegations, responded: “Just say that the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me and the Republican congressmen.”

It was a remarkable statement, even for a president who had serially abused the powers of his office. Having been told by the very department that had investigated his claims of fraud that they were untrue, Mr. Trump told the acting attorney general and his deputy to lie about it and said he would take it from there.

That Mr. Trump was willing to lie so baldly about a matter at the heart of our democracy — whether the American people can rely on elections to ensure the peaceful transfer of power — now seems self-evident, even unremarkable, when we consider the violent attack on the Capitol he incited days later. But Americans shouldn’t lose sight of how this behavior indicts the former president, and not just the former president but the Republican members of Congress whom he knew would go along with his big lie.

The report released Thursday from the Jan. 6 committee, on which I served, makes abundantly clear that there were multiple lines of effort to overturn the 2020 election. Some involved attempts to pressure state legislatures to declare the loser to be the winner. Others involved a fake electors plot, pressure on the vice president to violate his constitutional duty and efforts to force an elections official to “find” thousands of votes that didn’t exist. It was only when all of these other efforts failed that the president resorted to inciting mob violence to try to stop the transfer of power.

But one line of effort to overturn the election is given scant attention, and that involved the willingness of so many members of Congress to vote to overturn it. Even after Capitol Police and Metropolitan Police put down the insurrection at great cost to themselves, the majority of Republicans in the House picked up right where they left off, still voting to overturn the results in important states.

At one of our Jan. 6 committee hearings, the committee vice chair Liz Cheney, a Republican, called out her colleagues in Congress for their duplicity in the most searing terms: “There will come a day when Donald Trump is gone, but your dishonor will remain.”

With our work on the committee largely concluded, it will now fall to the Justice Department to ensure a form of accountability that Congress is not empowered to provide, and to vindicate the rule of law in a manner beyond our reach: through prosecution. Multiple laws were violated in the course of a broad attempt to overturn the election, and not just by the foot soldiers who broke into the Capitol building that day and brutally assaulted police officers, but also by those who incited them, encouraged them and, when it was all over, gave them aid and comfort. Bringing a former president to justice who even now calls for the “termination” of our Constitution is a perilous endeavor. Not doing so is far more dangerous.

There is a growing disdain for the law and for our country’s institutions, and a frightening acceptance of the use of violence to resolve political disputes. Mr. Trump’s big lie has been one of the most powerful instigators of political violence, since it persuaded millions of people that the election they lost must have been rigged or fraudulent. If people can be convinced of that, what is left but violence to decide who should govern? The attack on the Capitol was an all too foreseeable consequence of Mr. Trump’s relentless effort to alienate the people from their government and from the most important foundation of governance: their right to vote.

Even the Constitution cannot protect us if the people sworn to uphold it do not give meaning to their oath of office, if that oath is not informed by ideas of right and wrong, and if people are unwilling to accept the basic truth of things. None of it will be enough.

But if we allow ourselves to be guided by facts — not factions — and if we choose our representatives based on their allegiance to the law and to the Constitution, then we should have every confidence that our proud legacy of self-government will go on. It is our hope that this report will make a small contribution to that effort. Our country has never before faced the kind of threat we documented. May it never again.
I thought that impeaching Trump the first time was risky: obviously the Senate would not vote to impeach and I thought that a crowing Trump - "I told you so - I'm innocent" - wasn't worth the risk. The second time, and for the same reason, even more so.

And I am well aware that a federal trial, if DoJ decides to prosecute, may fail if one of the jurors is a Tumpista through and through and refuses to convict despite the evidence and the defense which of course we have not yet seen. But I think Schiff's point in the third para from the end is right.

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Joe Guy
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Re: Jan 6 Committee issues final report

Post by Joe Guy »

I really hope that all of the pro-Trump arguments aren't believed by as large of a number of people as it seems. Then there are people like Kari Lake who reinforce the beliefs of the idiots who have bought into Trump's extremely dangerous rantings (when read heard and believed by large unknown numbers of people). And the republicans who are afraid to go against Trump for whatever reason simply feed into the ignorance and stupidity of the other Trumpists. These followers seem to be ready to become violent if they are proven wrong - because anything proven against Trump is a lie in their minds.

Trump's strategy seems to be to blame the Democratic Party of doing everything he has done. It rallies his supporters. Of course if our country were anything like he would like us to believe, he'd be dead or missing by now.

I sure hope that more republicans and maybe even Faux News type reporters begin to realize how serious they're endangering this country.

I have hope for us all but I think I read too many comments from the idiots and it worries me.

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Re: Jan 6 Committee issues final report

Post by BoSoxGal »

Sadly a solid 70% of the formerly grand old party is all in on election denial along with Trump. He is a malevolent force who has done us serious longstanding damage - even if he has a fatal MCI tomorrow, we will be cleaning up his mess for decades. But while he remains breathing he remains in the clear lead for his party’s nomination in 2024 and that is a sickening prospect, that he could be that close to the seat of power again.

Jack Smith needs to get cracking.
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Big RR
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Re: Jan 6 Committee issues final report

Post by Big RR »

Even if Trump is indicted (and I seriously doubt he will be; like with Nixon, those in power will find a way for him not to be--they don't want to take any chance of facing the same thing when they are out of power), I don't think it would affect his ability to run for office (hell, I am not sure he couldn't still run if he were convicted (and getting all of that done in two years is likely not going to happen)--there is no Constitutional provision relevant tot his and I am not aware of any court cases relating to this. The best we can hope is to expose what he did and hope enough people will vote accordingly--democracy is a bitch.

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Long Run
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Re: Jan 6 Committee issues final report

Post by Long Run »

The January 6 commission did a good job of uncovering what happened that day. Unfortunately, it was such a partisan effort that relatively few people paid attention beyond those who avidly despise Trump and news junkies. The commission was made up of 7 D's, including Schiff who is among the biggest partisans in Congress, and two R's who were very vocal critics of Trump. If the commission was going to move the needle of public opinion, it would have needed to convince a substantial amount of independents and R's, but those groups tuned the commission out a long time ago.

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Jan 6 Committee issues final report

Post by BoSoxGal »

And that is the most ridiculous thing, because 100% of the witnesses to events in dispute were Trump loyalists to the bitter end, some testifying about his constitutional violations and then declaring they would vote for him again if given the chance.

It’s all insanity.

My new perspective on all this is that as a political scientist by education, it is an utterly fascinating time to be alive and witnessing history. But then I watch Zelenskyy speaking to the joint session and hear the thunderous echoes of history and realize that we are not that far from where we were 81 years ago and that is deeply disheartening, and scary. I have been feeling such relief since the election and I know millions of my fellow citizens join me there, but we must remain vigilant. We are still in a potentially lethal dance with fascism and everything remains at stake.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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Big RR
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Re: Jan 6 Committee issues final report

Post by Big RR »

You are correct about the witnesses, BSG, but IMHO Pelosi did us all a disservice by stacking the committee and refusing those the republican initially put forward. It just makes it easy for the Trumpists to claim "witch hunt" and dismiss any committee findings.

Also, I would far rather have heard all the witness testimony rather than the combination of committee members speaking and then showing short videos; again, it's a lot easier to dismiss as partisan picking and choosing. I recall watching many, many hours of testimony during the Watergate hearings, and I think I learned a lot more than I would have if the testimony had been reduced to sound bites supporting the conclusory statements made by the committee members, but maybe that's just me.

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Scooter
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Re: Jan 6 Committee issues final report

Post by Scooter »

Big RR wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 7:19 pm
IMHO Pelosi did us all a disservice by stacking the committee and refusing those the republican initially put forward. It just makes it easy for the Trumpists to claim "witch hunt" and dismiss any committee findings.
That would have happened regardless. Having Republicans on the committees that took on the impeachment hearings didn't stop anyone from characterizing them as witch hunts. The sole reason that Jordan et al were to be on the committee was to disrupt, derail and make a mockery of the process. There certainly would not have been any Republican put forward by the leadership who would signed on to any report pointing the finger at any of key actors in the insurrection. So regardless, there would have been a report endorsed by the Democratic majority only, which would have been denounced as a witch hunt by almost every Republican.

At least this way, the committee was able to approach its work in a serious manner without having Jordan et al attempting to thwart its functioning at every turn.

The foxes lost any right to guard the henhouse when they tried to burn it down.
"If you don't have a seat at the table, you're on the menu."

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Crackpot
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Re: Jan 6 Committee issues final report

Post by Crackpot »

Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

Big RR
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Re: Jan 6 Committee issues final report

Post by Big RR »

There certainly would not have been any Republican put forward by the leadership who would signed on to any report pointing the finger at any of key actors in the insurrection.
Likely true, but there is a big difference between disagreeing and being obstructionist; I do think there are some who would have let the hearings rin their course (likely asking some tough questions to the majority witnesses and calling some of their own). At least it would have appeared that an open and fair hearing was conducted. and that's the problem--those who have already made up their minds come down on one side or the other, but those who are still undecided are the ones that need to be reached. I think the appearance of fairness is important to achieve that. Sure, the Trump loyalists (and much of the republican party) will still howl witch hunt, but it would not play quite as well.
At least this way, the committee was able to approach its work in a serious manner without having Jordan et al attempting to thwart its functioning at every turn.
Perhaps, but then Jordan likely would have been hoisted on his own petard in front of the American people. The best way to get someone listened to by the undecided is to try and ban his viewpoint. Sure, the loyalists would have cheered him, but many others would have seen him for what he was.

IMHO, key to any hearing like this is fairness, and appearances count a lot.

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Jan 6 Committee issues final report

Post by BoSoxGal »

“At least it would have appeared that an open and fair hearing was conducted.”

Only the irrational who would be convinced by nothing could possibly argue that didn’t already happen.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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Burning Petard
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Re: Jan 6 Committee issues final report

Post by Burning Petard »

There is always the longer view Schiff says: "a frightening acceptance of the use of violence to resolve political disputes". At least no Congress critter has repeated history by beating another nearly to death with a stout cane in the floor of the Congress.

snailgate.

Big RR
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Re: Jan 6 Committee issues final report

Post by Big RR »

Only the irrational who would be convinced by nothing could possibly argue that didn’t already happen.
I don't know BSG; I do think there is a major distrust of the government, and especially politicians, among the American populace. The apparent stacking of committee members to assure the dissent would be silenced will make some of these undecideds, even the rational ones, question the fairness of the process, and just ignore what was done. Indeed, I'd bet there were a lot of people (including some who are "rational") who just ignored the committee hearings and reports for this very reason. And, IMHO, those are the people we need to convince. If we look back to the Senate and House committees investigating Watergate, both had there dissenters, including some big jerks (I recall Charles Sandman from my state being one on the House committee), but they dealt with it and the probes were better for it.

I just think the entire process could have been done much better. But time will tell.

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Re: Jan 6 Committee issues final report

Post by Sue U »

Big RR wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 6:25 pm
Only the irrational who would be convinced by nothing could possibly argue that didn’t already happen.
I don't know BSG; I do think there is a major distrust of the government, and especially politicians, among the American populace. The apparent stacking of committee members to assure the dissent would be silenced will make some of these undecideds, even the rational ones, question the fairness of the process, and just ignore what was done. Indeed, I'd bet there were a lot of people (including some who are "rational") who just ignored the committee hearings and reports for this very reason. And, IMHO, those are the people we need to convince. If we look back to the Senate and House committees investigating Watergate, both had there dissenters, including some big jerks (I recall Charles Sandman from my state being one on the House committee), but they dealt with it and the probes were better for it.

I just think the entire process could have been done much better. But time will tell.
Don't blame the Democrats for "stacking" committee members. There was never going to be an independent bipartisan January 6 investigation committee specifically because GOP Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy could not/would not allow it. After they had reached a compromise agreement that gave Republicans nearly everything they wanted, McCarthy threw his own negotiators under the bus to appease his orange god. Instead, he began demanding investigations of all kinds of extraneous matters (Antifa! BLM!) and floating obvious bad-faith choices for GOP saboteurs members of the committee.

Not incidentally, if you want an extended examination of the spineless, calculating and unprincipled rise of the would-be Speaker, last week's New Yorker featured a chilling profile, What Kevin McCarthy Will Do to Gain Power.

This is not a both-sides issue. The Republicans -- and their House Leader in particular -- are wholly responsible for the dearth of GOP committee members. The committee went out of its way to present exclusively the documentary evidence and testimony of Republicans and Trump administration staff in its public hearings. The evidence from their own party members was incredibly damning of Trump and his collaborators. Anyone who claims to be "undecided" because of "partisanship" on the committee is only looking for an excuse.
GAH!

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Long Run
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Re: Jan 6 Committee issues final report

Post by Long Run »

Sue U wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 9:04 pm

This is not a both-sides issue. The Republicans -- and their House Leader in particular -- are wholly responsible for the dearth of GOP committee members.
Pelosi rejected Republican appointees "after they had struck the deal". Huge mistake by Pelosi, and as BigRR has been pointing out, this decision made the committee's work unmarketable to the people that needed to be reached.

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Re: Jan 6 Committee issues final report

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

McCarthy nominated 5 for the panel among whom three (Gym Jordan (OH), Troy Nehls (TX) and Jim Banks (IN)) were among those who voted not to certify the election which is what the insurrection was about. Pelosi accepted Nehls and rejected Jordan and Banks as was her right, a right which had often been exercised by both sides in the past. In investigating a crime - and it clearly was a crime - it makes no sense to include parties who would never acknowledge that a crime had even taken place. McCarthy was clearly trying to sabotage the panel from Day One and Jordan was one of the attack dogs who shad shown willing from the outset. I don't know much about Nehls. Jordan in particular was one of the participants in the Jan 6 events - he had had several phone calls with Trump and might have been a witness.

McCarthy had tried to use the 9/11 commission as an example of bipartisan cooperation in an investigation but it's a false equivalence: there were no potential panel members who thought that the 9/11 events were a tourist visit to NYC and DC which had gone wrong.

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Re: Jan 6 Committee issues final report

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

And don't forget that it was McCarthy who kept trying to renegotiate after agreement. Remember Pelosi's statement: "He won't take yes for an answer!" McCarthy pushed his luck way too much.

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Re: Jan 6 Committee issues final report

Post by Big RR »

Sue--all well and good; indeed, you're preaching to the choir here. But politics is as much appearances as facts, and Pelosi unilaterally rejecting republican nominees, generally without comment, just doesn't look right to many in the undecided camp--and those are the "hearts and minds" we need. Sure, it would have been a much more contentious process, but I think it still could have resulted in factual testimony which would be seen as more fairly obtained as having adversarial persons on the committee will assure both sides can be heard (and the stupidity of any would be clearly seen in a public forum).

FWIW, I also think the conclusory way the testimony was presented (having the committee members state their conclusions interspersed with video sound bites supporting them) added to this distrust; I much would have rather seen the full testimony and been able to draw my own conclusions, and it would not surprise me if others felt the same.

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Re: Jan 6 Committee issues final report

Post by Burning Petard »

There is political correctness, tactical politics, and description of reality. Hillary was really bad in the first and second categories with her 'basket of deplorables' but right on for the third category.

snailgate

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Re: Jan 6 Committee issues final report

Post by Econoline »

Big RR — just where, pray tell, is this "undecided camp" which concerns you so much? :loon
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