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MajGenl.Meade
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Any questions?

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

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For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

Burning Petard
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Re: Any questions?

Post by Burning Petard »

Wait, tell me again, who was president in 2019? And just why a conservative (less government is better government) should believe a regulation put in place to control a public health crisis, should continue after the crisis is over?

And finally, what does this chart tell me? The headline includes the word 'detention'. Doesn't that mean this is a report of people who are NOT getting into the general population, who are essentially prisoners?

snailgate.

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Any questions?

Post by BoSoxGal »

Would you care to provide even the littlest bit of context concerning what is happening in central and South America that is driving these new waves of migration? I should think it is a little bit relevant.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Any questions?

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

I guess there are questions. I hope that "detentions" are brief and they all get sent back across the border where they can apply at US embassies for visas and green cards and such.

ETA: but yes, I am sorry for their troubles. Why don't they all flee south?
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Any questions?

Post by BoSoxGal »

Which stable economy and democracy in southern South America has the resources to integrate millions of migrants?

Which massive economy and oldest continuous democracy in North America has rock bottom unemployment and empty jobs in the double digit millions and desperately needs migrants to be workers and new citizens? (Hint: before answering, consider that recent polls clearly establish that most migrants from the south are very conservative pro GOP voters, so the notion that migrants further the left agenda is simply silly.)
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Any questions?

Post by BoSoxGal »

As to the far simpler issue of detention - it is a result of a public health measure in Title 42, which SCOTUS has just issued order to sustain. By itself it is a mainstream means to control the movement of people during a global pandemic and many other countries have utilized such restrictions during the covid19 pandemic, which is ongoing despite our desire to pretend otherwise. Certainly there are aspects of the detentions that are heartbreaking and disturbing, but there are reasons for the control of influx of refugees during this public health crisis.

We need comprehensive immigration reform but in the short term we need a steep ramping up of the asylum court capacity so we can hear the petitions of migrants and start bringing in those with prima facie asylum cases so they can start resettling in anticipation of approval. We NEED migrants. I’m only two generations removed from my migrant grandparents from Germany and I know how hard they worked to be here and assimilate. It sickens me to see so much anti immigrant sentiment in this country today, but I guess we were ever thus and ever thus will be. History doesn’t just echo, it screams.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

Big RR
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Re: Any questions?

Post by Big RR »

My understanding of the issues before the Supreme Court is that the Biden administration did not comply with required administrative procedures to end the program. While it is worth contesting for the precedent, I don't understand why the administration doesn't just follow the law and terminate it properly (although I do question whether there is a real concern for immigrants' rights in the administration--it's not a popular position; I question whether there are some who just counsel Biden to sit tight and then blame the court if it is retained).

I agree with BSG that we need comprehensive immigration reform, and the consideration of asylum cases should be expedited, but neither the president nor the Congress is willing to take an unpopular position, even if it is the right one.

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Any questions?

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

I'm all for reformed and then properly administered immigration procedures. But not here. That should be taking place in US embassies/consulates in country-of-origin. Illegal border crossing followed by an assumption of assimilation, food, whatever, based simply on the fact of successful evasion of the law is just not right.

All should be arrested and sent back via Amazon Prime with instructions on how to walk to the nearest US immigration officer in their own country. I don't object to immigrants - I be one. I object to illegal alien not being returned at once. They can stay in Mexico as long as they wish - Mexico can deal with that since they too have allowed them to enter illegally. Their problem.

As to voting Republican - heaven forfend! The place is is enough trouble without that. (A bit puzzled - I thought this was a broke democracy with Amereikuns promising to leave for Iceland or something if X happens)
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Any questions?

Post by BoSoxGal »

It’s a foundational principle of international law that refugees seeking asylum in civilized countries have the right to have their claims heard including if they’ve crossed a border to escape the persecution - and not to be returned to the place where that persecution will face them again. https://www.unhcr.org/en-us/1951-refuge ... ntion.html

You seem to be confusing regular immigration with refugees fleeing here to seek asylum. Might some of the claims be spurious? Surely. Might some of the folks be working the system? Certainly. That is no justification to mistreat anyone or refuse the safe haven while they exercise their human rights, rights we have agreed to uphold.

PS - Maybe you should spend a few hours watching Ken Burns’s most recent documentary and recalling America’s - and the UK’s - shameful history of turning away thousands of Jews fleeing Hitler’s murderous persecution. There is a reason we created the international world order of laws and institutions protecting universal human rights. Let’s not pretend otherwise.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Any questions?

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Oh I don't think there's a need to return them to wherever such terrible things are happening - not sure what terrible things those are, but no doubt more terrible than say in Afghanistan. Just return them to Mexico (supposedly a democratic country which generously allows millions to cross its territory in order to herd the problem north).

But seriously - over 4 million detentions of illegal border-crossers in the past two years? I doubt there's anyone left to oppress in those central and southern countries that are so er... oppressive.

I can't imagine what impels people to risk such journeys - I mean, the scale of whatever it is they are fleeing that makes it necessary to place their lives at such risk. It must be awful. Especially for the children - and the decision that parents must make on their behalf.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Any questions?

Post by BoSoxGal »

You never fail to disappoint, Meade.
Last edited by BoSoxGal on Thu Dec 29, 2022 3:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

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Joe Guy
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Re: Any questions?

Post by Joe Guy »

I guess I'm not getting it but couldn't that chart mean that more migrants got through illegally prior to 2021 without being detained or does it mean more people are being caught and detained now? Or does it mean more people are legally seeking asylum here because things are more screwed up elsewhere? Or does it mean something else?

ex-khobar Andy
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Re: Any questions?

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

NAFTA was enacted in 1994 but the benefits to Mexico in particular really started to take effect in the first decade of the 21st Century. And one of the tacit goals of NAFTA (and the Blessed Virgin Ronnie started this ball rolling, lest we forget) was to improve the economic situation in Mexico and thus perhaps ease the pressure on the border. Looking at the graph it's evident that this had some effect; and TFG tearing up NAFTA may well be a cause (maybe partial) of the rise since then.

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Any questions?

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

BoSoxGal wrote:
Thu Dec 29, 2022 1:43 am
You never fail to disappoint, Meade.
You've spoken to my wife then?
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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