Rebels Without a Clue

[Joe Guy]

[BoSoxGal]

PRESSURE TO END APARTHEID BEGAN AT GRASS ROOTS IN U.S.

They are young and full of idealism, and thank goodness for that. They may not know all the ins and outs of how their universities, or the universities in the city where they live, are invested in Israel and support for the current right wing insane Netanyahu government, but they know that 34,000 dead and 77,000 wounded, 2/3 of them women and children, in the space of 6 months while responding to a terror attack that killed 1500 is inherently wrong.

I'll get on board all day long with mocking Trump protesters who believe alternative 'facts,' but I'm not going to mock young idealistic people who want to see an end to the ongoing slaughter of Palestinian civilians.

I will add the caveat that I am troubled by the pro-Hamas, antisemitic element in the protests but from what I'm reading and seeing it appears that is the fire starting element in an otherwise peaceful protest which includes many Jewish students and faculty who also want to see the end of Netanyahu's bloodlust.

[MajGenl.Meade]

They may not know all the ins and outs of how their universities, or the universities in the city where they live, are invested in Israel and support for the current right wing insane Netanyahu government

I think "may not know" is a vast understatement. And "any of the ins and outs" more appropriate than "all"

I also think the universities themselves don't know the ways in which their money is invested. There seems to be an idea that the leaders of University ABC sit around all day chortling as they buy stock in Israeli companies. In fact, money is invested in funds which invest in funds and the Uni may (and likely does) have no idea into which business those funds put the dosh.

They can find out. But not easily and not always. And they can't surgically remove Moses' Camel Fodder from a fund in a fund without extreme difficulty and in some cases not at all.

Peaceful protest is fine and commendable. Halting the violence - bringing Netanyahu to account - very worthy. But the pro-Hamas, anti-Israel (not anti-Netanyahu) emphasis is sadly the extreme left version of MAGAts.

[Big RR]

Meade--to a certain extent I agree with you, but I also think that some of what is being referred to as "pro Hamas" is more pro Palestinian--not the same thing. Likewise, while I'll admit I am not much of a part of the university scene at this time, I can recall a time when any criticism of Israel or its policies was labeled antisemitic, and I'm not all that sure that has changed.

But honestly, what has troubled me just as much is the reaction of the universities to break up peaceful protests--no violence, no real threats of violence, but apparently some students are bothered by the mere fact that some are taking a public position contrary tot heir own. Quite frankly, it appears the universities are more concerned with keeping the donations flowing in than with protecting the freedom and diversity of opinion of their students, and that's really sad. By all means, crack down on the violence, but protest at universities is a time honored tradition I can recall from my times in college. IMHO, many of these universities, including many of which like to style themselves as ideal institutions of academic freedom and learning, are behaving shamefully.

[Joe Guy]

Could someone explain to me what "Pro-Palestinian" protestors intend to accomplish by destroying property and rioting at a college campus in the U.S.?

Do they believe it will convince Netanyahu to stop fighting against Hamas and other Iranian supported terrorist groups?

If so, wouldn't it be more effective to go to Israel and protest?

[Burning Petard]

As far as I can tell, the objective is to end US military support for the nation of Israel. Un happily, I know of no time machine that will get the world back to 1948 to work out the break-up of the British mandate that was Palestine in a different way. I have read of nobody that has a plan to end the long time conflict as it exists now, without the complete destruction of either Israel or Palestine

But the doable demand from the 'student protestors' is for the university and college entities to withdraw any investment money from corporate entities that do business with the nation of Israel. In my mind the counter is to 'demand' the students to do the same--accept no loans for their school fees that come from companies that do business with Israel.

Seems to me that the protestors, if actual students, are making a big financial sacrifice, if the schools act as they may. The students are not going to class. Yet the staff continues to get paid and the fees the students have contracted for continue to come due. The students are refusing services that they have contracted to pay for. They are not accepting the educational services they have agreed to pay for.

snailgate.

[Big RR]

Joe--rioting? What rioting have you seen, except maybe some push back when the police or security seek to clear/arrest them? From what I have seen, the encampments and demonstrators, for want of a better word, have been fairly peaceful, are not occupying buildings, are not preventing others from attending class (although they are trying to convince some to join them; ii just seems to bother the college administrators that they exist at all. Sure, some Israeli supporters would prefer not to see these protests. but life sucks and you don't always get what you want. I fail to see why universities are so up in arms over peaceful protests.

Why are they protesting here--so far as I can see, there are two reasons, to change college investments in the way BP states (reminds me of similar protests to divest of South Africa investments in the 80s), as well as an open protest to our government to put pressure on/stop the unconditional support of Israel. Will it work--probably not (just as "Occupy Wall Street" didn't really achieve their aims, but it stimulates the discussions at many different levels of society, and, IMHO, that's the real value of public protest.

[Joe Guy]

Joe--rioting? What rioting have you seen, except maybe some push back when the police or security seek to clear/arrest them?

Last night I saw fireworks being thrown and people fighting but maybe rioting was the wrong word to use. The most absurd thing I saw last evening was the woman in the video below (beginning at :20) saying the the protestors are being deprived of "humanitarian aid" because apparently they've ordered food to be delivered and they aren't able to access it.

[Big RR]

The only violence I saw is when the police came to remove them; shooting tear gas and flash bag grenades and swinging clubs, which prompted the protestors to fight back--fireworks may also have been shot, but I did not see it. But I can hardly condmemn the protestors for fighting back when attacked, especially when they were peaceful otherwise.

The woman sounds like a bit of a loon, but again, I don't see why the administrations insisted they had to be removed.

[Joe Guy]

The only violence I saw is when the police came to remove them; shooting tear gas and flash bag grenades and swinging clubs, which prompted the protestors to fight back--fireworks may also have been shot, but I did not see it. But I can hardly condmemn the protestors for fighting back when attacked, especially when they were peaceful otherwise.

The woman sounds like a bit of a loon, but again, I don't see why the administrations insisted they had to be removed.

I saw footage of a protestor punching another protestor and then others joining in but I guess I wouldn't call that a riot. As far as protestors being removed, what I saw were people who had locked themselves in a building on campus being removed. I assumed it was for trespassing.

[Big RR]

Clearing the encampments prompted some fighting back, resisting arrest; hardly surprising since the cops were treating them as rioters, so why not act as them. In schools where the administration resisted calling in the cops, like Rutgers, the encampments were eventually abandoned voluntarily. And that's my main point--protest on college campuses and their environs are time honored traditions (remember Les Miserables accounts of the student protests?); when there is no violence, shy make such a big deal about it? Unless it is because they are afraid of losing some donations from those who oppose the message of the protesters, which is why I'll bet many administrators decided to crack down. Add to this the deminization of the protestors saying they forced graduation ceremonies to be canceled (really, the protestors have such power? And there is fear that these mostly non violent protestors will attack the attendees. Or is it the concern to placate wealthy donors and show they are in control? I know what it seems like to me).

[MajGenl.Meade]

I support the right of protesters to protest and for society to arrest 'em all. Surely, it's an integral part of the entire program - meeting everyone's expectations and creating "when I was a lad/gal/prefer not to say" stories for the next generations?

Peaceful, orderly, unopposed protests are dead dull, innit?

[Big RR]

I don't know, they sometimes get their point across, be it nonviolent civil rights protests or large scale encampments like Occupy Wall Street. Violence can achieve results, but sometimes not the results you want.

[MajGenl.Meade]

I don't know, they sometimes get their point across, be it nonviolent civil rights protests or large scale encampments like Occupy Wall Street. Violence can achieve results, but sometimes not the results you want.

A rattling good yarn for the grandchildren is always a good result.

[BoSoxGal]

This world is shitty and rigged against most of us by the MOTU - remember them?

If sometimes the cogs in the machine want to be vocally pissed off in a public arena, I’m not going to criticize the peaceful assembly of cogs.

[Burning Petard]

Tomorrow is the 50th year anniversary of the Kent State Killings. Perhaps the protesting students of today view this a a reminder of what faith in the rightness of one's cause does when confronted by scared people with guns.

snailgate.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Sorry Snail. You're 4 years too late. That was May 4, 1970. This is year 54.

I plan on driving two miles down Summit Street, parking somewhere on campus - maybe the hike and bike trail. And making my way over to the Memorial for the 12:46 moment. Haven't been down there since 1978 when protesting the new gym, which had already partially opened.

[Joe Guy]

...I plan on driving two miles down Summit Street, parking somewhere on campus - maybe the hike and bike trail. And making my way over to the Memorial for the 12:46 moment. Haven't been down there since 1978 when protesting the new gym, which had already partially opened.

Don't forget to wear your CSN&Y t-shirt.

[ex-khobar Andy]

I was there in Kent one day 1998-ish. It wasn't the anniversary - the daffodils on the hill were out, and the spots where the four students died were well marked. I was an ocean away when it happened, but it was devastating to us all the same.

Antisemitism has a long history from Shylock through blood libel to Hitler and beyond. But the modern conflation of anti-Israeli policies with antisemitism is much more recent, perhaps only a couple of decades old. I am against many US government policies (especially during a certain recent administration) but I hope I would never be called anti-American. Venn diagrams are useful. Many (most? all?) racists and homophobes and sexists and assholes support Trump; but by no means are all Trump supporters racists and homophobes and sexists and assholes. Coming up to what might be the most important election in US history it behooves us to mot forget that.

[Scooter]

Can pretty confidently say that all Trump supporters are assholes, and are at least one of racist, sexist and homophobic.