And the media whitewash (pun intended) of right-wing extremism continues

[Scooter]

An article in today's Columbus Dispatch today, covering a neo-Nazi march. At first, the headline read: "Columbus police are responding after reports of armed people dressed as Nazis marching on the city's North Side".

"People dressed as Nazis", really? Did the paper have a reasonable belief that they were going to a costume party, or that it was a false flag operation? Then why the hesitation in calling a Nazi a Nazi, if not to blunt the significance of what happened?

Then when they revised the headline to the current version, they compounded the error. Now "city leaders [were] condemn[ing] reports of neo-Nazis marching". So there were only "reports" of Nazis? Had said reports not been corroborated by that point? Why couldn't they just flatly state that Nazis were marching in the streets?

Is this yet more of the "good people on both sides" approach to journalism that the media has embraced over and over again in the Trump era?

[Big RR]

Did the paper have a reasonable belief that they were going to a costume party, or that it was a false flag operation? Then why the hesitation in calling a Nazi a Nazi, if not to blunt the significance of what happened?

I disagree Scooter; clothes don't make the man and people dressing like WW2 nazis are not necessarily nazis (anymore than the jerk in horns at the capitol was a viking (OK, vikings didn't wear horns, but I think it makes the point). Labels make little sense; it's better to condemn the ideas directly--it's like the 50s when anyone disagreeing with the right were called "communists". I'd rather not repeat that time with using the term nazi.

[Scooter]

If we don't label as Nazis those who are "carrying black flags with red swastikas on them" while "using racial slurs toward people of color on the street" and "shouting about Jewish people and white power", then to whom does the term apply? Because refusing to label them for what they are, risks ignoring the danger that they represent.

BTW, I would have no problem calling someone a Communist if they were waving a hammer and sickle flag while railing against bourgeois capitalism and chanting "Workers of the world, unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains."

[Big RR]

Scooter--I objectto the term Nazi because they have become the boogeymen of all that is evil recently; which the so-called neo nazi embrace a lot of theo1920s - 40s nazis, there are differences as well. These people deserve to be called out for what they say and do, not be put into a little box of "evil" that reaches near comic book proportions. all them racists, far right, even fascists--maybe even ridicule the for the old nazi symbols they carry. And attack the ideas and acts, not the people. Unlike you, I do believe there are "good people on both sides" , but i couple that with good people can do many horrendous things. we don't have to conjure up evil to explain what happens, we are clearly capable of being dangerous idiots all on or own.

[Burning Petard]

There is a sub-specialty of Theology called theodicy that works with the question of why did G-d make evil. I like Big RR's summary:

"we don't have to conjure up evil to explain what happens, we are clearly capable of being dangerous idiots all on or own."

snailgate

[Sue U]

Unlike you, I do believe there are "good people on both sides" , but i couple that with good people can do many horrendous things. we don't have to conjure up evil to explain what happens, we are clearly capable of being dangerous idiots all on or own.

No, there are no "good people" who make common cause with Nazis. These aren't rhetorical boogeymen Nazis, these are actual swastika-waving, Jew-hating, racist, white-supremacist Nazis. Yes to Hannah Arendt's "banality of evil" and all that, but these assholes playing SS dress-up are going out of their way to tell you exactly who they are, and you'd be a fool not to believe them.

[Joe Guy]

A Nazi by any other name would be as hateful and evil. There is no in between.

[ex-khobar Andy]

What Sue said.

[Scooter]

A Nazi by any other name would be as hateful and evil. There is no in between.

Except that saying they were "dressed as Nazis" puts what they did on par with Prince Harry's ill considered choice of a costume at that infamous party.

[Big RR]

Well Sue, I guess sit depends on how you define "good people", but I think a lot of these are people who have no real understanding of that the (neo)nazis were/are; and just joined up because they were pissed off or wanted to piss someone else off. I recall people like that during the antiwar protests, people who really had no understanding of what they were doing, and often gravitated to the the biggest mouth asshole wing protesters--committing vandalism, etc. Indeed, as I recall, some of theses groups were set up by the government for the express purpose of discrediting the protesters.

Again, I'm not above arresting and prosecuting these people for what they have done, nor do I have any problem for criticizing or ridiculing them for their stated beliefs, but these people are no more nazis than the people I alluded to above were revolutionaries--just jerks.

[MajGenl.Meade]

I think a lot of these are people who have no real understanding of that the (neo)nazis were/are; and just joined up because they were pissed off or wanted to piss someone else off.

May I suggest that the second premise fits those who were actual Nazis in the 1930s? I feel reasonably certain that not one Nazi considered him or herself to be an evil swine intent on inflicting unjustified harm on fellow humans. To the contrary, they considered themselves pioneers for a better world.

Precious few felt the pangs of guilt until much, much later when even their consciences began to rebel against the constant repetition of cruelty that they at first considered rational and reasonable. And for which they voted.

There's no moral difference between jack-booted, uniform-wearing, flag-waving, swastika arm-banded thugs and relatively ordinary men and women who waved the same flag and acquiesced while the brown and black shirts went to work. It's a quibble to assert that the thugs were the real Nazis and their supporters were only goodish humans who didn't understand what was going on.

[Big RR]

Meade--I am not certain, but I do think the nazis were pretty open with their positions as to the Master Race, the danger of the Jewish "problem" (and the blaming of jews for all the economic problems Germany has suffered), the loyalty to the fuhrer, and the desire to reclaim all Germany's lands and, despite later protestations, people enthusiastically embraced these positions and joined them.

Current neo-nazis? I doubt they give a damn about the fuhrer (other than to piss people off; and FWIW, I don't think most have that loyalty to Trump), really don't care about the restoration of Germany's lands, have the same hatred of Jews (sure, some are antisemites, but not all), or any other commonality. Calling them nazis to harken back to the time when they were seen as the ultimate comic book evil (something that has persisted in the entertainment venue for years when someone needed an evil villain. We might just as well call them SPECTRE.

Again, I'd rather attack the ideas than resort to labels.

And FWIW, I agree there is no moral idfference between the two groups--both are reprehensible, but there are factual differences.

[BoSoxGal]

I really don't know how anyone could fail to see the Nazi in that rhetoric. How can you Nazi it?

[Bicycle Bill]

I really don't know how anyone could fail to see the Nazi in that rhetoric.  How can you Nazi it?

When the MAGAs say,
"We are the Master Race!"
Then we "HEIL!" (Thpptt!!)  "HEIL!" (Thpptt!!)
Right in the MAGA's face

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cy3xFmX4B6c

-"BB"-

[ex-khobar Andy]

Hitler gave pretty rousing speeches too.

I just love the image of all those corporate suits, Democrats to a man, who shipped US manufacturing jobs to Mexico and China and wherever.

I went to a seminar, years ago when the internet was just getting started. I had Compuserve at home which probably dates it to 1995 or so. The speaker was concerned about how people got and processed information and how that information would disseminated in the future without editorial control or peer review. I think I thought that he was overstating his case and that there must have been similar reservations about moveable type and how Gutenberg was opening the floodgates for anyone who wanted to spread his views. If anything, now I think he was understating the problem.

[Big RR]

Well, I guess I'm a minority of one here, and I'm not going to beat a dead horse. Call them, whatever you want; I'll join much of the sentiment, but not the name calling

[MajGenl.Meade]

Meade--I am not certain, but I do think the nazis were pretty open with their positions as to the Master Race, the danger of the Jewish "problem" (and the blaming of jews for all the economic problems Germany has suffered), the loyalty to the fuhrer, and the desire to reclaim all Germany's lands . . . Current neo-nazis? I doubt they give a damn about the fuhrer (other than to piss people off; . . .), really don't care about the restoration of Germany's lands, have the same hatred of Jews (sure, some are antisemites, but not all), or any other commonality"

Oh, well if all you are saying is that the term "Nazi" is restricted to a particular time and historical event, then I guess you have a point. It's verboten to call American thugs marching in black under the swastika as Nazis because they are not embracing the entirety of Hitler's plan for a One Thousand Year Reich. Maybe they are neo-Hindus?

Also amazed that you know these people in Columbus, OH well enough to determine that while some are anti-semitic, not all are. I'm trying to think of a neo-Jain who isn't but I got nothing. I am not certain but I do think Adolf and his pals didn't want to guess who was coming to dinner. And I'd hazard an idea that the neo-Buddhists marching in Colombus are likely not friends of friends of Dorothy either - but (ya got me there) I don't know for sure eh? Still 'n all, I'm betting that the lads down south of Akron have a lot more in common with the sartorially challenged SA and MVSN - not that one should confuse a fascist with a nazi - totally different labels and ideas.

Looks like, walks like, quacks like =

[Big RR]

Also amazed that you know these people in Columbus, OH well enough to determine that while some are anti-semitic, not all are.

And I'll counter that I am "amazed that you know these people in Columbus, OH well enough to determine that they all are anti-semitic." Personally, I think it quite likely that the are more anti-immigrant (and moslem and gay and ...) than anti-semitic, and many might even join Trump in his pro-Israel "policy".

Looks like, walks like, quacks like =

Yep, and that is precisely the way of thinking I reject when it comes to situations like this.

[Bicycle Bill]

Looks like, walks like, quacks like =

Yep, and that is precisely the way of thinking I reject when it comes to situations like this.

While logic tells me that the possibility of something that looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck NOT being a duck is certainly greater than zero, I'm equally sure that the old adage holds true something like 99 and 44/100 percent of the time.

-"BB"-

[MajGenl.Meade]

Also amazed that you know these people in Columbus, OH well enough to determine that while some are anti-semitic, not all are.

And I'll counter that I am "amazed that you know these people in Columbus, OH well enough to determine that they all are anti-semitic."

And I'll counter your counter by pointing out that you made a definite statement that not all the neo-Nazis marching in Columbus are anti-semites, claiming knowledge of fact. I don't understand how you know that. Seems like hopeful guesswork to me.

Whereas I wrote that I couldn't think of a neo-Jain (swastika jest there) who isn't anti-semitic. I can't - and that's a fact.

Can you think of a neo-Nazi marching in Columbus or anywhere else who isn't anti-semitic? Can you name one? Perhaps you can, in which case I will no longer poopoo your poopoo